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Author Topic: Transgender Bathrooms  (Read 23819 times)

Reelya

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #165 on: March 13, 2015, 05:29:20 pm »

Actually, I think I misread and the sex offender thing is separate, but the one about pregnant women makes no sense without more context.

I read it as committing any crime while pregnant is also a crime in and of itself. So a pregnant woman who steals would be charged with theft and with committing a criminal offence while pregnant.

Which is moronic.

Here's a good idea - outlaw abortion, and charge women with the crimes of having an abortion, procuring an abortion, and infanticide ... but on top of that you can charge them again for "X while pregnant" for all the other crimes.

How about 'the crime of "commiting a crime while pregnant" while pregnant'. Because stealing while pregnant is a crime, so you can now charge her with the crime of doing that crime while pregnant too, and pile up the charges as high as you want.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 05:31:17 pm by Reelya »
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wierd

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #166 on: March 13, 2015, 05:32:41 pm »

Yes. Applying moral outrage over something into a law, is absurd.

Glad we agree.
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Neonivek

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #167 on: March 13, 2015, 05:41:31 pm »

Generally speaking a "Crime ontop" is used for one or both of two reasons
1) It is there to make a crime more punishing then usual: Hate Crimes are this
2) They are used to make a crime much easier to prosecute then usual: Breaking and Entering is this

While I could support a law that made it EXTRA illegal to include children in acts of crime (well more like be ambivilant to)

This seems clearly like the first category.
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wierd

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #168 on: March 13, 2015, 05:43:43 pm »

Then there's the "I'm a police officer, do as I say" invocation.

Such as-- being arrested for resisting arrest.

Amusingly, under that kind of farce, a pregnant woman who has not committed any crimes, but who resists being arrested (since she has not committed any crimes) has then committed the heinous crime of resisting arrest, AND for committing that crime while pregnant.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 05:45:51 pm by wierd »
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Neonivek

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #169 on: March 13, 2015, 06:18:29 pm »

In all fairness resisting arrest with no just cause is a pretty valid thing to be charged for.

But reading the article further I can see why that law can be a lot more harmful then helpful.
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Lagslayer

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #170 on: March 13, 2015, 09:02:29 pm »

In all fairness resisting arrest with no just cause is a pretty valid thing to be charged for.

But reading the article further I can see why that law can be a lot more harmful then helpful.
Wait, do you mean...
1. the arrest has no just cause
2. resisting with no just cause

LordBucket

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #171 on: March 14, 2015, 12:02:26 am »

I am done apologizing for being born how I was.... I hide how I am, because the terrible people of the world, will ruin me for it (if they haven't already), not because something's wrong with me. I'm amazed with all that's wrong in the world that people want to play bathroom police.

You're not hearing me.... You're on the wrong side of history. The unshown ending is that the people who have a problem with it are forced to use the other 3rd bathroom. Good. I'm getting a little sick of being out in the cold from tired old hat arguments. You do realize your arguments are finally losing ground as we gain acceptance, right?

I'm going to assume you misread my post. I was agreeing that for purposes of this discussion it was reasonable to consider transgenders to be the sex they've transitioned to:

at least in the context of bathroom use, there should be no need to differentiate between male and FtM or between female and MtF.

Unless I'm mistaken, though I suspect you would phrase it more strongly, the above statement is something you agree with. So again, I'm going to just assume you misread me.



What LordBucket means (please correct me if I'm wrong, LB), at least partially, by "this isn't about you", is that the majority of people don't feel strongly about honest people such as you, Truean, using the women's facilities; they feel strongly about men who may take advantage of the protections afforded you to harm other honest folks.

Well, I don't think gendered bathrooms really exist because of fear that men will take advantage of women. I think they exist to give people a space where they can let down their social barriers at a time when they feel vulnerable. For example, we've probably all known women who refuse to step outside the house without putting on makeup and guys who suck in their gut whenever a woman passes by. There exists social pressure to "put on your best face" when in the company of the opposite gender. And nobody wants to deal with that when they're peeing.

And this is why it isn't about transgenders. Women don't want men in their bathrooms and men don't want women in their bathrooms. Though in the case of men there may be some social pressure to engage in male posturing and respond with "oh, but my dick is so big, of course I want women in there to see me!" But this is exactly the sort of thing that gendered bathrooms exist to eliminate. This phenomenon would still exist even if there were no transgenders at all.




The real question that dispels or confirms everything I've said, about the opposition's views, about everything, comes down to one question:

Do you believe a person can legitimately change their sex? <--- This what everything spawns from right here.

If yes,

If no,

It's ironic for me to be the one needing to point this out to you, but it's not as binary as you're indicating. Consider a pre-op male-to-female. They're taking hormones, they have breasts, but they still have a penis. Are they male or female? Not so "X or Y" is it?

Yes, we can probably reasonably assume that since this person is on a path of intention to no longer be male, that it's very unlikely that they're going to go into the women's room and harass and rape all the girls. But again, that's not what gendered bathrooms exist to prevent. They exist to allow people the chance to relax and let down the social barriers they're expected to maintain in the company of the opposite sex.

If you have a penis and look obviously like a guy, it doesn't matter what gender you "feel like you associate with." What matters is whether people see you and react with "just us X's in here, all's well" or "Oh, noes! Y invading our personal space!" This isn't a transgender issue. Same social rules apply to me as apply to you. I can't put on a dress and hang out in the girls' bathroom either.

"Can a person legitimately change their sex?" It depends. You've already brought up the chromosomes issue.There are technological limits (for now) to what we can do. But I will grant you that chromosomes don't matter for the purposes of this particular conversation. Nobody is going to be examining you under a microscope when you walk into a bathroom. If you're trying to become pregnant, prospects for sex change do not look good. But again, for the purposes of this conversation you're probably not going to the bathroom to get pregnant. You're probably going to the bathroom...to pee. And in that context, for purposes of this discussion, yes I will agree that it is reasonable and acceptable to consider transgenders to be the gender they've transitioned to.

But act in good faith and use your best judgement. If you just started taking hormones last week and still have a penis and waltz into the women's room, don't be surprised if you're asked to leave. Act with courtesy. Don't use to situation to try to prove something.


Grek

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #172 on: March 14, 2015, 03:41:38 am »

Wait, do you mean...
1. the arrest has no just cause
2. resisting with no just cause

There's a legal requirement to comply whenever a duly appointed police officer declares you to be under arrest. Failure to comply is resisting arrest. Even if the officer has no legal cause to arrest you, resisting arrest is illegal. The same is true of police instructions in general - "failure to obey a police order" is also a crime in most US states. And in the United States, police officers have qualified immunity from being sued for false arrest in cases where there is generally no legal recourse beyond filing a complaint.
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smjjames

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #173 on: March 14, 2015, 06:27:21 am »

Wait, do you mean...
1. the arrest has no just cause
2. resisting with no just cause

There's a legal requirement to comply whenever a duly appointed police officer declares you to be under arrest. Failure to comply is resisting arrest. Even if the officer has no legal cause to arrest you, resisting arrest is illegal. The same is true of police instructions in general - "failure to obey a police order" is also a crime in most US states. And in the United States, police officers have qualified immunity from being sued for false arrest in cases where there is generally no legal recourse beyond filing a complaint.

Isn't resisting arrest also illegal in other countries? I doubt the U.S. has a monopoly on that.
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scriver

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #174 on: March 14, 2015, 06:36:57 am »

The problem here isn't that's it's illegal to resist arrest, it's that they can apply reverse continuity to the arrest.
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alexandertnt

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #175 on: March 14, 2015, 07:14:52 am »

Isn't resisting arrest also illegal in other countries? I doubt the U.S. has a monopoly on that.

Pretty sure it's illegal in most countries.
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Truean

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #176 on: March 14, 2015, 11:46:53 am »

Quote from: LordBucket

A.) Again with the quoting....
B.) You're really not seeing how everybody else is saying you're missing the point.
C.) You actually think that we're unaware of your point and you need to clarify it? Don't you? Not the case. We know; we reject.
D.)If you haven't seen it by now, then you never will, but once again, your entire premise is wrong:

Well, I don't think gendered bathrooms really exist because of fear that men will take advantage of women.

It's been explained to you repeatedly that your opinion is incorrect, but perhaps you missed this:


Be sure to scroll all the way over on the right so the eye peeking through the wall shows up on your screen.

And that's in Canada ... they're way nicer up there than in the US. So no, I didn't misread you. I actively reject everything you're saying. I will not give a damn about people's comfort if they're excluding others and trampling on their rights. They will eventually be shouted down when we win finally win this fight. Good.

Yes, yes, please waste your breath saying it's not about transgender people again, go on. I know you will for the umpteenth time. It is. Let me spell this out for you one more time before I ignore you forever. Yes, women don't want men in the ladies' room, that's obvious, we all knew long before you typed it, quit typing it. The problem is the people opposed to this DO NOT RECOGNIZE TRANSGENDER as a real medical condition and label us all perverts. They see a fully transitioned MtF transgender person with all the surgeries done and still think that's a man You think it's not about transgender people and you're wrong. We've sited several laws and proposed legislation saying exactly that. Next? Agree to disagree already.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 12:01:03 pm by Truean »
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Neonivek

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #177 on: March 14, 2015, 12:00:14 pm »

Quote
And that's in Canada

Canada does have its differing morals thanks to it being a mostly collection of many people.

But look at that poster, it is about stopping a bill that specifically protects transgendered rights :P

It is a very nice reverse of the situation in Texas and Kentucky.

Ps. Yeah I know you didn't say anything about it. I just wanted to comment because of Canadian Pride.

---

Quote
The problem is the people opposed to this DO NOT RECOGNIZE TRANSGENDER as a real medical condition and label us all perverts.

It is less that you are ALL perverts so much as one of you COULD be a pervert. Which isn't too much of an important distinction, but it does mean if you do speak to the opposition they will say "No we don't think all transgendered are perverts".

My personal attack on "There will be perverts though!" is that frankly there are more gay women then there are transgendered people... and I think, if I am reading this study right... Transgendered people tend not to be attracted to their own gender (I think this study is so bad).

However... I think you missed an important part of that poster

"Prevent Gender Confusion"

Now THIS I didn't think of... But I really should have remembered.

Remember how when some elementary school teachers came out as gay they sometimes lost their jobs... not on the grounds that they are "pedophiles" (but it did indeed happen somewhere), but rather because the children would have sexual confusion because of their teacher's orientation.

This is basically saying that just by being in "the wrong bathroom" a transgendered person can create powerful gender confusion on a child... With the hidden caveat that the child may in turn become transgendered, or a pervert, or a criminal, or something...

There is a part of me that always feels like "Protect the children" is probably the cheapest emotional ploy one could make.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 12:04:27 pm by Neonivek »
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wierd

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #178 on: March 14, 2015, 12:09:52 pm »

But it is still "Moral outrage," and giving it weight of law is insane. That way leads to madness, and guarantees the creation of an oppressed demographic.

The alternative is lots of "inconvenienced" or "Offended" demographics, who don't get 100% their way, having to tough it out together.

I think the latter is the better solution to employ, since this is a system-wide problem.

This is, again, "Things that make me feel squicky" VS "Things that should be illegal."
Explaining to little suzy why the woman with the beard is in the stall next to her? Squicky.
Forbidding the early stage transgender person from using their mentally gender appropriate bathroom, and trying some bullshit segregation? Should be illegal. (It directly harms people)

The "It would confuse my poor impressionable child, who I want to pretend will never, ever be exposed to the moral horrors of this perverted modern life, shattering the wholesome, godly worldview illusion I have worked so hard to conjure up!" is NOT justification for segregation, which is EXACTLY what a "third bathroom" would be.
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Truean

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Re: Transgender Bathrooms
« Reply #179 on: March 14, 2015, 12:11:14 pm »

However... I think you missed an important part of that poster.

Didn't miss it. That's a deliberately constructed theme. Look at the words with the black background and white text, "Protect, Defend, Prevent." Protect, Defend, and Prevent what? Various forms of abuse, and wrongful actions, listed in black text on a wall background, "Women and Children, Our Country's Morals, and Gender Confusion."

Don't you see it's all the same category presentation? "Women and Children" implies some physical or sexual abuse would be done and they need "protected" from it. "Our countries morals" is a mental/moral thing that needs "defending" (because it's implicitly under attack, don't you know?). And finally "Gender Confusion" is what you were talking about but it's a form of psychological damage that needs "prevented," because these people see gay people as a disease of either the body or the mind or both.

That poster is a lovely bit of bigotry and sadly I'm well aware of all it's parts. [sigh].
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.
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