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[Tiruin]

Perhaps it bugs me more than it should due to a similar situation almost getting me lynched in my first game (hi, Scripten), but you can't come in after someone flips and claim you were reading them as town all along, especially after doing little to nothing to try to stop them getting lynched. Tiruin.

Yeah, because its reasonable to think that 'oh she's just saying this for {town points probably} because {some weird reasons} and not {this is actually what she thinks--not that it changes anything anyway}' [/sarcasm]
^{Not like my bloody net even stopped it--like, I mean if it bloody did then I'd have a post to even do such last D2. No. Because its noooot technical difficulties. And Tiruin is scum that way}
Why does that note even affect you at all, DA?

Okay, some stuff from NQT.

Spoiler: NQT (click to show/hide)

[Post this in the thread in response to Scripten]

Scripten says, "Regardless of your roleclaim here, I find it strange that NQT would be scumreading you while you are confiding in him like this. I suppose we can let him speak for himself since we have a medium, though. Hopefully he does not miss this."

I was obviously town in this game (I received a grand total of one vote in the whole game and that was a non-serious RVS vote from Pisskop) so it's not unusual that a player would choose to confide in me their role. At least four players all did before they claimed in the thread. The confiding in this case happened mostly during N1 before Tiruin properly disappeared during D2 and I reluctantly pressed my D2 case on her as she'd yet to provide the promised WOT. I like Tiruin personally and we exchanged many PMs, but that doesn't mean I didn't wholly rule her out as scum.

Today (until UXLZ is killed) I'll be of most use so I'll try to keep abreast of the thread, answer questions etc. Oh, and here's a relevant PM exchange between me and Tiruin. Note I told her I believed she was a Psychic. And I'm pretty sure she is (even as scum, Tiruin prefers to twist the truth than invent things from whole cloth):

OK, how about you pick ZU? I'd like to know more about him too.

Here's a question: why did you pick Toaster to investigate?

>_>
<_<
I picked the person I most reasonably wanted to clear--because if he's scum, then he's also into doing the scumkill just as much as any of his teammates, and isn't a self-centric guy.

That, and I totally couldn't load part of D1 to calibrate my sensors, so I picked someone who'd be very dangerous and a high profile target, given his wisdom.

OK, how about you pick ZU? I'd like to know more about him too.

B-but..I wanted to be the Telepath D:
But yeah I got it. :O

Another thing: next time you post in the thread, don't mention your bad internet. Just say why you're voting Scripten. It'll take the same amount of key-presses and it will make people want to kill you a lot less. I sympathise that your connection is awful, but people think that if you have good enough connection to post excuses then you have good enough connection to post content.

Not like I lost said post 2 times already but nobody knows because browser goes
And then 'Problem Loading Page'.

I'll seriously picture my router and then my laptop screen showing all that if I could >_>
...But I've no camera that could do that <_<
So mmph.
Its argh.

I hear you. I don't think you're lying about this at all. I know scumtiruin is better than that.

I KNOW R-
...
You're saying you knew I'm town this whole time yet are poking me cuz I'm flailing with my net and n-
Oh I got it :I
I got it hard. I:
...
I like how we both think here

Perhaps it would help you if you knew how I work these things: I've got a huge list of all the possible scum teams and I get rid of combinations as they appear unlikely/impossible. If a player isn't being voted by others and hasn't voted people themselves then they can't be removed from this list. As such, you appear on a larger number of these contributions than all the other players. This is beginning to change now that people have been trying to get you lynched and now that you're starting to act a bit more.

Its hilarious that my net works at this times.
Then it dies when I'm about to make my case (or nearly, thereof, anyway).
Ahahhh I bet its going to die in the next half hour

Spoiler: NQT (click to show/hide)

...Why should Jim be killed by proxy when the one he's following was the one who acted directly on the War Vet?
Also, yes NQT--that part was part of a POST-DEATH PM I ACCIDENTALLY SENT TO YOU (before I saw the game became D3) -__- That information is NOT what you should've even used to act on!
And on that person--its someone whom you APPARENTLY also told about me :v
So I bring up that analogy once again that I'm making comical gestures in UXLZ's face which he's like a human window to your side.

Appended after that PM was a PM sent to you too to cancel and omit all information learned afterwards because I realized how it wouldbias your idea in deadchat too. :I
I seriously doubt you did not receive that one.

...Of all the things that makes me think 'NQT being serious and UXLZ actually being a medium'...should be that technicality?!

I'm omitting all information I learned from the PM you sent me. I haven't shared that with UXLZ at all. Remember I knew who you were going to target beforehand. As for Jim, perhaps I'm mistaking how the War Vet works. I thought if you follow someone to a War Vet you'd also die. I'll ask Meph.

Spoiler: NQT (click to show/hide)

I was wrong about the danger to Jim following Cheese: War Vets only kill those that directly target them. It's a bit convenient Jim targeting a dead scum player who's action was known. Can Jim point to anywhere on D1 where he expressed suspicions of mastahcheese? Why didn't he follow Pisskop, who he was voting for before he switched to TDS on D1?

...In which NQT overthinks my whole 'hey NQT, here's my role, I'll be silly to trust you but sure, I'll trust you'
Primarily because of a method devised by his own reasoning that should at least, to him, be the most credible way.
Yeah. That's totally why I confided in you, NQT. You're obviously town because of the number of people voting you. That's a surefire way to see who is townier and not really town.
You're really delving into the dangers of pure quantitative analysis, alone.

Tiruin prefers to twist the truth than invent things from whole cloth

Bloody fish that, dead-person.
Just say my bit on what I mentioned rather than saying it offhandedly, if you're going to use PMs as a proof. -_- I dislike you dancing around the bush and making assumptions instead of what I directly said.
I don't 'twist' the truth. I bloody omit it.
Ugh. Your facade of twisting things for an other perspective for the rest of these people is...inefficient. Just be direct with it, please.

Even after death for all reasons!
It's disappointing.

I'm omitting all information I learned from the PM you sent me. I haven't shared that with UXLZ at all. Remember I knew who you were going to target beforehand. As for Jim, perhaps I'm mistaking how the War Vet works. I thought if you follow someone to a War Vet you'd also die. I'll ask Meph.

Yeah, out of a set of people, because I bloody told you so.
That differs a total lot from your initial note.

++Wooo++ this is NQT speaking from the grave. It'll take more than a night kill to shut me up apparently. You can tell this is me speaking because I breadcrumbed DJWEST in post #86 (first letter of the first six names in reverse order). D J West wrote a book named Psychical Research Today. I told UXLZ to tell Tiruin to PM Scripten her action because I didn't think Scripten and her N2 target were on the same team. The important thing is that she's PM'd somebody her action so that people can't accuse her of making it up after she hears all the claims. If she has sent it to someone then it's safe for ZU to claim. When everyone has claimed, UXLZ will tell everyone what my night results were. What I want to know first though was why Jim wasn't killed by Toony if he was following Cheese?

See: past-present verb tense.
I never told anyone else who I would be targeting until that accidental-post-death-PM which you shouldn't even have known.

PPE: I stopped 'complaining about my internet' as if it was an excuse because it was really off-putting to be arguing with you about it.
Especially since its easily misconstrued into something worse, by someone who thinks he can empathize, and doesn't see exactly what happens (emphasis on 'being judgmental instead of actually asking what's going on').
By the way, net died until now and I'm RUSHING THIS POST TO GO TO SCHOOL. (Because its an excuse >_>)
Somehow, I'm using sarcasm to mimic your writing UXLZ :v Because that's a good defense mechanism to use when annoyed or irritated.

[Scripten]

Tiruin:

Can you answer this, please? I know you saw it, since you replied to other parts of my post

Question:

How do you believe scum usually distance themselves from one another?

[Tiruin]

Tiruin:

Can you answer this, please? I know you saw it, since you replied to other parts of my post

Question:

How do you believe scum usually distance themselves from one another?

@_@
Err, I guess its more me technically seeing it, but my brain didn't register it as addressed to me ._.

> Many ways, actually. There's no 'one big general method', its all depending on the person and individual--depending also, on how much they know about human behavior (and personal principles) in situations//general situations.
For me, I distance by omission. I don't say who my partners are or provide trace-leads to them in my posts (meaning the read-method isn't that efficient, unless someone with great insight is able to both understand my posting in a game, and then relate it with others) and am liable to overthinking a situation.

Some people use reads--which is also a valid way as a 'tell' to partners. Some people use the vote-pattern, the method by which NQT derives his data (its efficient, no argument about it--what I'm arguing about with him is the...err, how he uses it every time, in situations where it may not really apply efficiently ). Some people look at interactions between possible suspects and cross-analysis between town and scum. Some people play-by-role, acting more along the effectivity of their role (ie Abilities) in their interaction rather than seeing it as a team-game.

Its a thing about human behavior (ie 3rd level of personality) :3
How one would proceed with the game-analysis. Metaknowledge is a useable tool, actually--rather than discarding it--but it must not be used as a primary validator on seeing how a person acts in any one game (which is what you did earlier, Scripten, and is noted to be fallacious ._.). It's useable in noting what probably won't be how a person acts rather than 'This is how I act || and you can't judge me for acting otherwise'--a notion commonly taken by the masses who play this game, as far as my observations go. (both parts).

It's...both a simple, and a very complex way where literally anything can be done, limited by mechanics of course. Now in the PM-Game, I'm under the inference that scum are using PMs to their utmost capacity, furthering the ability to sow confusion given the power of knowledge and information which...can't be really poked in the day-game unless otherwise directly mentioned. (Though if people are going to jump on my 'I omit things' and point back to what I've said--I'll say it ahead that my inactivity isn't a result of me with the intent to omit -.-)

[Scripten]

Noting that, can you explain why you have so little on Toaster and Zombie Urist? Both are slightly lurky, but they have made contributions that you can analyze.

[UXLZ]

I believe this one is meant for Tiruin.

Spoiler: NQT (click to show/hide)

Tiruin

In which NQT overthinks my whole 'hey NQT, here's my role, I'll be silly to trust you but sure, I'll trust you'
Primarily because of a method devised by his own reasoning that should at least, to him, be the most credible way.
Yeah. That's totally why I confided in you, NQT. You're obviously town because of the number of people voting you. That's a surefire way to see who is townier and not really town.
You're really delving into the dangers of pure quantitative analysis, alone.

I'm not saying that people thought I was town because I had no votes on me, I had no votes on me because people thought I was town. I was trying to defend why you'd confide in me, but you seem to want to argue against that.

I don't 'twist' the truth. I bloody omit it.
Ugh. Your facade of twisting things for an other perspective for the rest of these people is...inefficient. Just be direct with it, please.

Even after death for all reasons!
It's disappointing.

You say potato, I say potato; you say tomato, I say you're putting a positive spin on something horrific. And here I thought I was saying something in your favour here.

++Wooo++ this is NQT speaking from the grave. It'll take more than a night kill to shut me up apparently. You can tell this is me speaking because I breadcrumbed DJWEST in post #86 (first letter of the first six names in reverse order). D J West wrote a book named Psychical Research Today. I told UXLZ to tell Tiruin to PM Scripten her action because I didn't think Scripten and her N2 target were on the same team. The important thing is that she's PM'd somebody her action so that people can't accuse her of making it up after she hears all the claims. If she has sent it to someone then it's safe for ZU to claim. When everyone has claimed, UXLZ will tell everyone what my night results were. What I want to know first though was why Jim wasn't killed by Toony if he was following Cheese?

See: past-present verb tense.
I never told anyone else who I would be targeting until that accidental-post-death-PM which you shouldn't even have known.

I can see how the grammar is ambiguous here: I wasn't meaning to imply that you had PM'd somebody, only that it was important that you do PM someone. (I meant it like: "In the future, it will be important that she had PM'd somebody".) Let's not argue about grammar. There's no point spending a long time interrogating me, I'm already dead AND I'm actually confirmed town. What is your case on Scripten really? Picking one person to vote for an entire game is 100% not-a-town-tell. Do you really think he's the best person to lynch?

[Tiruin]

Noting that, can you explain why you have so little on Toaster and Zombie Urist? Both are slightly lurky, but they have made contributions that you can analyze.

>_>
<_<
Honestly, I didn't read much into them.
^{Yes I'm embarrassed. It feels both weird, nice and strange that I feel blushing is...like it is. Probably due to how rare this happens with me. Ever.}

I believe this one is meant for Tiruin.

Spoiler: NQT (click to show/hide)

Tiruin

In which NQT overthinks my whole 'hey NQT, here's my role, I'll be silly to trust you but sure, I'll trust you'
Primarily because of a method devised by his own reasoning that should at least, to him, be the most credible way.
Yeah. That's totally why I confided in you, NQT. You're obviously town because of the number of people voting you. That's a surefire way to see who is townier and not really town.
You're really delving into the dangers of pure quantitative analysis, alone.

I'm not saying that people thought I was town because I had no votes on me, I had no votes on me because people thought I was town. I was trying to defend why you'd confide in me, but you seem to want to argue against that.

I don't 'twist' the truth. I bloody omit it.
Ugh. Your facade of twisting things for an other perspective for the rest of these people is...inefficient. Just be direct with it, please.

Even after death for all reasons!
It's disappointing.

You say potato, I say potato; you say tomato, I say you're putting a positive spin on something horrific. And here I thought I was saying something in your favour here.

++Wooo++ this is NQT speaking from the grave. It'll take more than a night kill to shut me up apparently. You can tell this is me speaking because I breadcrumbed DJWEST in post #86 (first letter of the first six names in reverse order). D J West wrote a book named Psychical Research Today. I told UXLZ to tell Tiruin to PM Scripten her action because I didn't think Scripten and her N2 target were on the same team. The important thing is that she's PM'd somebody her action so that people can't accuse her of making it up after she hears all the claims. If she has sent it to someone then it's safe for ZU to claim. When everyone has claimed, UXLZ will tell everyone what my night results were. What I want to know first though was why Jim wasn't killed by Toony if he was following Cheese?

See: past-present verb tense.
I never told anyone else who I would be targeting until that accidental-post-death-PM which you shouldn't even have known.

I can see how the grammar is ambiguous here: I wasn't meaning to imply that you had PM'd somebody, only that it was important that you do PM someone. (I meant it like: "In the future, it will be important that she had PM'd somebody".) Let's not argue about grammar. There's no point spending a long time interrogating me, I'm already dead AND I'm actually confirmed town. What is your case on Scripten really? Picking one person to vote for an entire game is 100% not-a-town-tell. Do you really think he's the best person to lynch?

:I
Alright, I'll just speak everything we talked about in PMs with NQT confirming it through proxy.
Later.
Because I'm rushing to school and just quoted this without fully reading it.

[Tiruin]

Heeey I was SK playing for town there! I literally didn't want to kill them at all (but then my dragon nature wanted to eat them)
...Yes I know how ironic that may seem. Umph! -.-

And yeah I get that you're going with me here but...the reason on why I want to come out with all of it myself is because
> I'm bad at lying (which, is really why I said I omit rather than twist .-.)
> I don't want miscommunication. Especially with that thing with making comical and hilarious gestures at UXLZ's face as an imagery (partially because it'd be rude and he'd be all :I at my face but I'd be thinking I'm talking to NQT)
> UXLZ is a nice dude but he's grumpy at times and sorta tsundere.
> I use vague terminology at times.
> My words are like spaghetti. It's orderly to me, but messy to others.

[UXLZ]

> UXLZ is a nice dude but he's grumpy at times and sorta tsundere.

Spoiler: OOC Tiruin Teasing (click to show/hide)

Hit the nail on the head Tiru-chan~~~ <3
But, let me ask... Who's the one constantly inflicting random bodily harm to whom in a B-B-BAKA! fashion? Because it isn't me doing that to you, and that leaves only one other option...

Yeah, your writing tends to ricochet off my eyes outside of IRCs. I think it's all the emotes. They just don't seem right in a Mafia game for some reason.
By the way, didn't you have school that you were running off to?

[Jim Groovester]

As much as I love seeing people argue with dead people who can't vote for them, how about them claims?

[Cheeetar]

I...am wary on that note of 'confirmed'
Why is he confirmed town again?

(About Deus Asmoth)

Assume DA was scum. He is partners with MC, and knows who MC is going to target. DA is still a bodyguard, as confirmed by Pisskop the townie saying he was protected, DA claiming it was him, and nobody counterclaiming.

DA chose to protect a townie. The disadvantages of doing so are that the townie might not die in the night, making it harder for him to win.
DA could have chosen MC, the advantages of which would have been possibly saving his partner from death with no disadvantages (bodyguard can't die from defending somebody).

In the event that DA broke his promise to Pisskop and Pisskop died, Pisskop would have been dead and in very little position to say that DA had not protected him.

So, why would scum DA ever protect somebody who wasn't one of his partners?

[UXLZ]

Jim: Pisskop seems to be under the impression that you're pushing for my lynch today. Is that just his insane paranoia talking or is he actually on to something?

[Jim Groovester]

Not currently, no.

[Tiruin]

Spoiler: OOC Tiruin Teasing (click to show/hide)

Hit the nail on the head Tiru-chan~~~ <3
But, let me ask... Who's the one constantly inflicting random bodily harm to whom in a B-B-BAKA! fashion? Because it isn't me doing that to you, and that leaves only one other option...

Beware on speaking Englishified Japanese to a Filipino.
Everytime you say Baka, we think 'Cow'.

But...yeah, that's what I was noting on the emoticons. They detract from my serious face. A lot.
And yes, I was rushing off to school because we lack mobile internet strong enough to accommodate posting on the run, so hello public PC shop.

I...am wary on that note of 'confirmed'
Why is he confirmed town again?

(About Deus Asmoth)

Assume DA was scum. He is partners with MC, and knows who MC is going to target. DA is still a bodyguard, as confirmed by Pisskop the townie saying he was protected, DA claiming it was him, and nobody counterclaiming.

DA chose to protect a townie. The disadvantages of doing so are that the townie might not die in the night, making it harder for him to win.
DA could have chosen MC, the advantages of which would have been possibly saving his partner from death with no disadvantages (bodyguard can't die from defending somebody).

In the event that DA broke his promise to Pisskop and Pisskop died, Pisskop would have been dead and in very little position to say that DA had not protected him.

So, why would scum DA ever protect somebody who wasn't one of his partners?

That's the problem: It assumes a target out of the whole sample population. It is not that significant to note, the credibility of the action compared to the assuaged notion of alignment doing the action. What I mean is, while pisskop may be polarized into either Town/Scum, DA is a spanner in the works for me--rather than assume a polarized objectivity on him, he's as gray as the rest when you consider the whole N1 plan as a Dopp Guardian can just as well protect anyone (As the presence of a Guard-type does NOT confirm a killer-type, regardless of alignment [because unless such is inferred, then the Guard-type must be confirmed town, if there is no killer as claimed]) and it would have done little, unless that person is targeted.

Hence why I included the IMPORTANCE of the PM system, it plays a pivotal role in accomplishing and bridging the notion of trust in a Mafia game. You PM the people you trust, and confide ideas on how to play the 'hidden phase', or the Night phase. This, in my eyes, is what happened between DA and pissk. Though i seriously have to look back on DA's note on the PMs, as that plays a major role here too in qualifying him on either side of the spectrum.

Because yes, that situation is very plausible--why protect a townie? They can be killed. The same goes for the opposite: Why not protect a townie? This all assumes a lot from the game, and granted, it is a very valid way of getting around, but as stated--there is the PM system which plays a pivotal role here.

Jim: Pisskop seems to be under the impression that you're pushing for my lynch today. Is that just his insane paranoia talking or is he actually on to something?

Pisskop be a silly lad, but he's got his merit. Despite how 'deviant' his playstyle may be, in essence of his contributions, there has been quite a lot he's said and done (if you discard the...edginess. It's like a gelatinous cube which is right next to you. It's scary and holding the remains of a dead person, but its not going to hurt you-...and I think my analogy went off the rails.)

[Deus Asmoth]

Tiruin:

NQT:

Spoiler: PMs (click to show/hide)

I don't think this counts as a gambit, but here we go regardless. Are you sticking to that no protect idea of yours? Because with flabort putting your role out in the open, the scumteam are likely going to target you regardless of whether he's one of them or not. My point is this: I'm a guardian, and I'll protect you tonight providing you're not some crazy veteran who'll shoot me in the back.

If you turn out to be scum after all, I really hope there's a medium I can complain to...

Yeah no, that's not a gambit, don't worry.

That would be fine, I'll tell you who I watch/follow and what I found tomorrow.  And if I die I hope there's a medium to complain to

Deus Asmoth:

If you still feel like guarding me, I think I have a plan.  I'll watch you to see who targets you, you guard me.  That way, we watch each other's backs.

Meph:

If a guard (of any kind) takes a kill for another player, is their attacker seen as targeting the guard or targeting the initial target?

I watch you, you guard me . . .
  We could, but I'm not sure if Id be the target.  I say yes by default, although it occurred to me that I could watch myself.  If I could scum myself up enough to avoid the NK.

Also, any thoughts on our original agreement?
  I doubt Im the NK now . . . And I don't know if you think you could catch the vig/nk.

I don't have my replies to pisskop saved because there's an option you have to enable to do that for some reason.

And your reply doesn't have to affect me for me to think that it's odd. You knew that people were gunning for pisskop since day 1, yet the first that you mention of him seeming town is after he flipped and there's no chance of you being wrong.

[Tiruin]

Tiruin:

NQT:

Spoiler: PMs (click to show/hide)

I don't think this counts as a gambit, but here we go regardless. Are you sticking to that no protect idea of yours? Because with flabort putting your role out in the open, the scumteam are likely going to target you regardless of whether he's one of them or not. My point is this: I'm a guardian, and I'll protect you tonight providing you're not some crazy veteran who'll shoot me in the back.

If you turn out to be scum after all, I really hope there's a medium I can complain to...

Yeah no, that's not a gambit, don't worry.

That would be fine, I'll tell you who I watch/follow and what I found tomorrow.  And if I die I hope there's a medium to complain to

Deus Asmoth:

If you still feel like guarding me, I think I have a plan.  I'll watch you to see who targets you, you guard me.  That way, we watch each other's backs.

Meph:

If a guard (of any kind) takes a kill for another player, is their attacker seen as targeting the guard or targeting the initial target?

I watch you, you guard me . . .
  We could, but I'm not sure if Id be the target.  I say yes by default, although it occurred to me that I could watch myself.  If I could scum myself up enough to avoid the NK.

Also, any thoughts on our original agreement?
  I doubt Im the NK now . . . And I don't know if you think you could catch the vig/nk.

I don't have my replies to pisskop saved because there's an option you have to enable to do that for some reason.

And your reply doesn't have to affect me for me to think that it's odd. You knew that people were gunning for pisskop since day 1, yet the first that you mention of him seeming town is after he flipped and there's no chance of you being wrong.

...Yeah, let's completely ignore that I wasn't able to speak in D2, and now let's just assume I'm making this all up instead of actually telling my real read. That's a smart way to converse with people, especially after ignoring my past reads on him. -_-

So its a trade off due to 4mask's gambit. Brilliant.
You believed him straight off as town given that one bit there?

    I don't think this counts as a gambit, but here we go regardless. Are you sticking to that no protect idea of yours? Because with flabort putting your role out in the open, the scumteam are likely going to target you regardless of whether he's one of them or not. My point is this: I'm a guardian, and I'll protect you tonight providing you're not some crazy veteran who'll shoot me in the back.

    If you turn out to be scum after all, I really hope there's a medium I can complain to...