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[UXLZ]

So did you not feel that there was enough to talk about between D1 and the events so far in D2 that you had to come up with a random topic?

Oh, wait, I think you're mistaken. I didn't roll for the topic, just the person I'd ask Jim his opinion on.

[Scripten]

Shakerag:

Do you really think anyone is going to do that and/or give half a shit?  If you're really scum in this game, and you're volunteering "dur hur hey guyz look at me be scum here" do you really think anyone is going to go "gee, Scripten isn't acting like he did when he was scum in that game, and everyone knows that you always act exactly the same across all games when you're scum, so Scripten is confirmed town now"?

This is why meta arguments are so goddamn stupid.  If anyone ever told me I have a pattern as a specific alignment, I would immediately change my behaviour if for no reason than to fuck with everyone who wants to make meta arguments.

Except Jim's assertion was that I "didn't know how to act" in that situation. The meta argument here shows that I know how to act and respond in kind when pressed by a scumbuddy, so his assertion is false.

If you're only using meta reads to support your cases, you're a poor player. The same is true if you don't bother to look at a player's history. You can't say "Oh, you're not capable of handling this as scum" and then throw out evidence that I did just that, much earlier in my mafia career.

I mean, seriously.  Assume I died N1.  And pretend I still gave a shit at the end of D1.  Do you really think there's anything I could have come up with that someone later on in the game is going to point back to and use that to clinch a lynch on a scum player?  Fuck no.  We both know that D1 in almost every game consists of running around like a moron and watching half the players glomp on to some numbnuts who either said something dumb or tried some "gambitz".

We lynched an anti-town player on D1. We managed to avoid lynching Flabort or Pisskop. So participate and stop trying to make us feel sorry for you. Flabort didn't kill you, and now he can't.

Hell, you want to lynch me for info?  Be my guest.  Even if D1 wasn't a catastrophe for me, I feel like I'm just spinning my wheels trying to get a lead anyway.  You'd be doing me a favor at this point.

Where have I heard this before?

Are you also planning on voting me, Shakerag?

[Cheeetar]

Cheeetar, ask the Medium to ask ToonyMan how many people he shot at during Night 1. I think ToonyMan would have said something if something was up but there's no harm in being thorough.

I technically fired more than three shots, but only at three people.

[Jim Groovester]

Oh, wait, I think you're mistaken. I didn't roll for the topic, just the person I'd ask Jim his opinion on.

You had a quote prepared that you asked about it. That doesn't seem particularly random.

I technically fired more than three shots, but only at three people.

Noted.

When he voted me? Not particularly strong, really. It's gotten much stronger since D2 began. That being said, I'm not sure what you mean by my response to his vote being aggressive. I called him out for his vote being weak, but beyond that, it wasn't that harsh.

You're right that it wasn't harsh, but that's not the point I'm getting at. The complimenting the playstyle is the issue here, not how much on the raging doucheometer you're at when you respond to people voting you.

You haven't complimented anybody else who was voting for you, so I tried to figure out why. Was it based on your read of the player at the time? Hard to say. You didn't suspect mastahcheese and complimented him. Meanwhile you didn't really suspect zombie urist at the time, but no compliments there. You weakly/moderately suspect Toaster, and also no compliments. You haven't complimented me or Tiruin, so there's that too. Why is mastahcheese special? He flipped scum, so maybe that has something to do with that.

Was it how strong or weak you felt the vote was? You had no trouble calling out zombie urist for a weak vote in rather assertive fashion, nor do you have trouble arguing confidently against Toaster and myself. Meanwhile, mastahcheese voted you on a gut feeling and then you go about complimenting his playstyle.

Tell me that something isn't up with that.

Of course it is. Thank you for agreeing with me.

This should give you a selection of my posts from one of my very first scum games ever. My scumbuddy was BlueBloodedToffee. Here is a link to a specific interaction. I've not been scum on this site yet, so I don't have any examples here. The only other scum game I have played is still going. See for yourself what my scum game is like and how I respond to my scumbuddies, then come back to me.

Meh.

I browsed through your linked posts and found nothing that said "HEY LOOK HE'S DOING THAT THING HE DID AS SCUM" but I'm not an expert on your meta and your posts don't look outrageously out of the ordinary anyway, so it ultimately tells me nothing.

Further, this is the wrong meta argument. The proper meta argument would have been 'I am occasionally known to compliment players' playstyles as both scum and town and here are instances where that happens.' Instead you present me 'Here's me interacting with a scumbuddy and adequately handling his pressure.'

If anything, you complimenting your voter's playstyle is outside your meta as you've presented it to me, which is even more interesting and even more worth pursuing especially given mastahcheese's alignment.

Citing your meta doesn't significantly sway me one way or the other.

Except Jim's assertion was that I "didn't know how to act" in that situation. The meta argument here shows that I know how to act and respond in kind when pressed by a scumbuddy, so his assertion is false.

What I said is that you didn't quite know how to act. As in, you have a pretty good idea but you're still practicing on getting it completely right and natural-looking. Not that you don't have any idea at all what to do.

[UXLZ]

You had a quote prepared that you asked about it. That doesn't seem particularly random.

Wait, please explain. I'm not sure what you're saying.

[Jim Groovester]

I'm saying that you picking Scripten wasn't random. You had a quote you thought was weird that you wanted me to give my opinion on, which amounts to some level of preparation. If you prepared something to ask about it's hard to believe the choice was random.

That's all.

[UXLZ]

I'm saying that you picking Scripten wasn't random. You had a quote you thought was weird that you wanted me to give my opinion on, which amounts to some level of preparation. If you prepared something to ask about it's hard to believe the choice was random.

That's all.

Oh, now I understand. I got that quote after I was going to share my own opinion since I was asking for yours. Remembered that one of his posts had made me feel weird, looked back on it harder, identified what the likely cause was.
If I had have rolled Tiruin, for instance, I probably would have said something about her seeming total lack of really doing anything all game long, as well as other stuff. Actually, I'm going to be voting for her later on in this post, but eh~

I still have literally no idea what Scripten was trying to say in that quote I showed you, if I'm honest, so...

Scripten:

Shakerag became defeatist and tried to just kill Flabort off. This would be consistent with scum!Shakerag, since a vig and scum can cross-kill.

What does this actually mean?

Tiruin:

Can you please make your posts a bit more legible? Better formatting, less emote spam, more coherent sentences and the like. I know that goes a bit contrary to your personality, but I'm seriously having trouble reading what you write and I know you can speak normally when you're serious. The words just ricochet away.

Oh, also, Tiruin.

Woo. So net = ded for most of the day, and today was expressively tiring day .-.
Nonetheless meaning that I'm online in the wee hours of the morning x_x

Making up post!

You said this, then you made five other posts over the next hour and ten minutes (approximate), none of which were in this thread. You can't use your net as an excuse because of that. You also can't use your tiredness as an excuse because, once again, you were here for over an hour after that point. I hope whatever post you were supposedly making there manages to convince me that you weren't just trying to stall for more time. I've been in the kind of position you're in, so I'm sympathetic to net issues, but you've managed to remain fairly active forum-wide and you've done nothing but stall, and stall, and stall again, with the occasional null-reads or incredibly hard to decipher observations thrown in along the way. Yesterday you had to be prompted by NQT in giant bolded pink-glowing text to even cast your first vote, which you still haven't managed to follow up on.

[Deus Asmoth]

Cheetar, I don't think I understand Tooney's answer. He got targeted by one person multiple times? Or were the extra shots just flavour?

UXLZ, if you had multiple people you were able to supply evidence to ask Jim about, why not just ask about all of them instead  of choosing one at random?

[UXLZ]

UXLZ, if you had multiple people you were able to supply evidence to ask Jim about, why not just ask about all of them instead  of choosing one at random?

The pool was from the entire living player base not a select group of people I had 'evidence' on. To be honest, it was initially kind of a joke. I was hoping the dice would land on 4 so I could ask Jim about himself. I ended up realising that what I was doing wasn't exactly the most productive thing in the world, and when it landed on Scripten, it prompted me to remember that 'off' post. I don't think Scripten is scummy (at least, not in the post I quoted), it's just my lack of understanding about what he's trying to say that I found odd.

Why is my rolling to decide who I'm going to ask a question about so odd? Is it the act of rolling to decide itself that you dislike, or do you suspect that I'm lying and just saying I rolled and landed on Scripten when I planned to ask about him all along?

Everyone: What do you think about Tiruin at the moment?
EBWOP stuff on Tiruin: I'd also like to mention that while supposedly her net prevents her from posting anything substantial, it's worth noting that (unless my forum format is different to hers) you have to load the entire page to even start typing up your post. Also, the quality of one's net doesn't really influence how large the posts you make can be. Even when my internet was borked and running at 10 KBp/s I could still write quite large WoTs without any noticeable issues.

Anyway, goodnight.

[Deus Asmoth]

I don't like you choosing who you asked about by dice because it means you'd have been happy to ask about whoever came up, making it look to me like the question itself was just making conversation and the answer didn't really matter to you.

[Persus13]

UXLZ:

Everyone: What do you think about Tiruin at the moment?
EBWOP stuff on Tiruin: I'd also like to mention that while supposedly her net prevents her from posting anything substantial, it's worth noting that (unless my forum format is different to hers) you have to load the entire page to even start typing up your post. Also, the quality of one's net doesn't really influence how large the posts you make can be. Even when my internet was borked and running at 10 KBp/s I could still write quite large WoTs without any noticeable issues.

Are you seriously trying to suggest here that Tiruin is lying about her net?

Scripten:

you're one of the more active players and helped lynch TDS

I disagree that this is alignment-indicative in any way. Are aliens even are of one another? I thought every alien was a third-party role.

There's certainly no precedent for clearing people for being on the TDS wagon.

The town vig was a better target for scum to lynch, and almost did get lynched. Cheeetar helping ensure that TDS got lynched instead gives him some town points. Not much, but some.

Cheeetar:

A question for you who are hesitant to vote Pisskop in the event that he's just a poorly performing town: Where are all the mafia jumping on him? He's such an easy target, surely, so where are the scum pushing his lynch? Why isn't somebody apart from me seeing how suspicious his actions are?

I see his actions as suspicious, but at the same time so is your trying to lynch an investigative role and you were on same wagon as Mastahcheese for a while D1. Since pisskop is going to have to tell us his night info, and you're one of the more active players and helped lynch TDS, I'd rather go for Shakerag.

Emphasis mine- because he chose such an excellent night action Night 1, right?

You mean then night action were we're almost certain of his role and got enough suspicion on him that if he's town he's not likely to be scumkilled at the cost of a guard role who already revealed their role to a scum player revealing themself?

Pisskop:

Cheeeta, you don't think hitting the vig target, the NK, and the war vet all while under the BG protection (and the BG lived) is a good target?

I may not be Cheeetar, but considering the fact that you learned nothing from the night that all of us knew from the opening post of D2, yes, I don't consider Toony a good target.

NQT:

Persus
Cute testimonials, but how will getting yourself lynched help the town?

You mean pisskop right? Because you have a section of the post addressing me later on, plus this makes no sense addressed to me.

Persus

I'd rather not have seen either flabort or pisskop lynched, although if I had to choose one of them, it would have probably been Flabort because of the whole outing 4maskwolf's role thing. It's moot now, especially since scum knew 4maskwolf as soon as MC checked his PMs. Otherwise I felt that pisskop was a flailing new player and that Flabort was getting too much flack over the PM comment at the beginning of the game, especially considering how much PM shenanigans happened at the end of Day 1. It's kindof ridiculous.
I definitely would have gone with TDS over Flabort. Hindsight may be clouding my judgement, but I would have gone with TDS over Flabort.

This is sufficiently reasonable. You intend to keep a vote on until the end of the day? Not voting is a cardinal sin in my books.

Yes, I didn't vote at the end of day yesterday because I didn't want to make an ill informed vote (and wasn't on for day end) while dealing with the end of the class I had taken.

pisskop: Cheeetar [2]
zombie urist: Deus Asmoth, Persus13 [2]
Tiruin: Scripten, notquitethere [2]
UXLZ: zombie urist [1]
Shakerag: Persus, Pisskop [2]
Scripten: Tiruin [1]
Not Voting: Shakerag, Jim, Toaster

I'm voting twice in this count.

Tiruin: YOu sure you don't want to replace out because of your net?

[Tiruin]

Tiruin: YOu sure you don't want to replace out because of your net?

I can handle this and seriously punch UXLZ for the aggressive note in poking at my net 'because he could somewhat empathize'. -.-

Try loading up the 'new replies', then systematically mousewheel-tabbing the needed ones and then waiting for quite a few minutes for each single page to load, then more minutes to REPLY, then more minutes to PREVIEW. -_-

I can do more than just five posts if this was even faster, accommodating typing speed and knowledge of what to say beforehand.

Unlike your brief glimpse of 10 kbp/s, it is seen so common here that I assumed it was natural...until I heard of pretty much everyone else with their 10Mbp/s stuff. 100. 1GB...

And yes the WoT is going along nicely, thank you very much. :I

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
pisskop: Cheeetar
zombie urist: Deus Asmoth
Scripten: Jim Groovester, Tiruin, Toaster
Shakerag: pisskop, Persus13
Tiruin: Scripten, UXLZ, notquitethere
UXLZ: zombie urist


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today (about 9 hours from now)

[Deus Asmoth]

Everyone, can I see the reasons behind your votes? Currently I'm seeing:
Cheetar voting Pisskop for an OMGUS and poor reasoning.
Jim voting Scripten for a friendly tone with Mastahcheese.
NQT voting Tiruin for inactivity.
Persus voting Shakerag for the same reason (and defeatist attitude?).
Pisskop also voting Shakerag for inactivity.
Scripten voting Tiruin for Mastahcheese's attitude to her (somewhat odd in my opinion considering his later dismissal of his own attitude to cheese)
Tiruin voting Scripten as a note to herself.
Toaster voting Scripten for apologetic voting.
UXLZ voting Tiruin for inactivity.
Zombie Urist voting for UXLZ for his posts not having enough content (even though only three out of Zombie's twelve posts have more than four lines contributed by him in them.)

And Shakerag isn't voting. I don't have much experience with the lynch all lurkers idea, but is it really better to lynch someone who hasn't been acting at all than to lynch someone who's been acting scummy?

[pisskop]

Depends, I think.
  Especially in a game with Jesters and/or alternative wincons to the default Town/Scum wins.  Like our little sporespawner.

But, in general, a D2 lurker is lynchbait.  Many on D1 want to put the lurkers down, but in larger game like this one its impossible to lynch every poor content provider.

  Shaker is certainly fitting the bill for lynchbait.  Even when posting he's only reactively responding, asking poor questions, or faphing about with one-lineish dialogue.

  The longer a scum can go without exposing their 'reads' and having to lay down concrete reference points the more they are able to twist the situation to their whims and construct cases from the air.

Hence, Tiruin and Jim are sketchy.
  I get the impression Tiruin tends to play that way by default, but Jim's voting pattern and scumhunting is terribad considering his personality.  His response to 'Your reads look like dried up rat turds' is 'That's dumb'.  And of course he only voted somebody after being pressured to and he did so citing a completely left field method onto an unpopular wagon for what I think a fairly weak and convoluted reasons.  In short, he's constructed a weak case that he can later retract and say 'oh, I was wrong.'