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I like it better than the last one

It's good, but I don't see the need with the discussion thread

It's not going to go anywhere good, just lock it now.

[Helgoland]

Well, they're in full communion with the Latin rite though, and so are just as Catholic as Pope Francis.

[Magistrum]

Well, he was quite plain about it: 'This is my flesh', 'This is my blood'. Pretty heavy-handed for figurative speech, especially considering that it has no rhetoric effect. If we accept the bible as source material, it must be something more than a mere symbol.

Helgoland
I wonder... Are you really sure? If this was to be taken literally, how would you do the whole with the whole "doing it in his memory" part? How exactly this works? Do you not make any kind of meeting for his memory, and if yes, how?

[TD1]

"This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

Sounds like figurative speech. He's saying do this in remembrance of his body, given for you.

If a politician says Berlin is my life, or morals are the blood which flow through me, you don't assume they're being literal. Jesus may be seen as a deity, but some basic human rules still apply, such as the use of metaphors and similes.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Why the comment of WMD's in Iraq being untrue? He wasn't lieing that they had them, the reason we didn't find them is because Iraq (acctually more accurately) Alqueda gave them to (seria IIRC) for safe keeping and who just so happened to have WMDs later on. Oh that's right Seria. The country that started gassing their own people. Sorry if this comes across as angry... And on a tangent...

On Jesus, if nothing else I still hold my faith that he existed.

An hypothetical question: if you had discovered beyond any doubt that Jesus never existed, would it make you doubt your religion?

I would give juedeism a look if that happened
If that got knocked out too I would probably go budhist

[Magistrum]

I would give juedeism a look if that happened
If that got knocked out too I would probably go budhist

If I were you I would go budhist, judaism should probably have gotten it's messiah in the time of Jesus, since, you know, christians are jewish who believe Jesus is the messiah, and jewish are those who don't think he was the messiah, but still, that was the scheduled time for it to happen and I don't see their messiah coming anytime soon... Is there a jew answering questions?

[Cheeetar]

What attracts you to Buddhism, Cryxis?

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Well if no god exists and there is absolute proof that jesus never existed (Saying this for the record, all this is hypothetical. I will probably stay christian absolutly) and judeism gets the same kinda boot. Budhism just seems like a nice life style if nothing else, and its not all that far off of christian teachings when it comes to ways of life

[MonkeyHead]

Well if no god exists and there is absolute proof that jesus never existed (Saying this for the record, all this is hypothetical. I will probably stay christian absolutly) and judeism gets the same kinda boot. Budhism just seems like a nice life style if nothing else, and its not all that far off of christian teachings when it comes to ways of life

At the risk of being a pedant - general good human behaviour is "not that far off" Christian teachings on ways of life, with or without religious teachings, though I am sure you already know and realise that no religion has a monopoly on moralistic behaviours. What you describe is a very common behaviour amongst those who "loose faith" - it is very common for someone to replace one form of faith with another, as they still have a need to "believe" something - be it a god or some other kind of centrally organized dogmatic system.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Well I wouldn't need a new faith, Buddhism doesn't require faith, its just trying to reach nirvana (i guess faith in nirvana's existence)
I don't belive in nirvana but I do believe in peace. I might not follow it to a T but I would identify as that because its a nice path to follow the whole 'don't be a dick' path

[Helgoland]

I do find that to be wrong tought, reading the bible has led to believe that it was just plain wine and bread, a piece of foreboding on the blood he would give as price for humanity. Figurative language if you will.

Well, he was quite plain about it: 'This is my flesh', 'This is my blood'. Pretty heavy-handed for figurative speech, especially considering that it has no rhetoric effect. If we accept the bible as source material, it must be something more than a mere symbol.

I don't think it's heavy handed. "[Thing] is [different thing]" is one of the most basic metaphors. Jesus even uses it in very obviously metaphorical ways elsewhere. "I am the alpha and the omega," for example. He's not claiming that he's two greek letters; he's being figurative.

What's it a metaphor for, then? Metaphors usually have a more-or-less clear purpose; such purpose is absent here. And seriously, how improbable is it for a lunatic in ancient Israel who believes he is the son of God, sent as Messiah to rescue the people of Earth, to believe he is giving to his followers his actual flesh and blood?

[Sheb]

Well, he's going to offer his flesh and blood for humanity by sacrificing himself. Mass is supposed to be a commemoration of that bond, where Jesus symbolically offer his flesh and blood to humanity again. So in effect he meant "This symbolize my flesh, this symbolize my blood". Although let's be honest, that sentence was most likely added after the fact, which explain why it comes out as a bit weird.

[Magistrum]

Helgoland
Nah, first off you must start by the assumption that he isn't a lunatic in Israel, because that's what we believe. Therefore, he must have a purpose.
The purpose isn't absent, the "blood and flesh" were representing the new pact he was making with those in the room eating the bread and drinking the wine. The old judaic pact which was represented by an ark(A pimped out chest if you will) wasn't valid anymore, as it is stated that christ is the end of law, so the mosaic law got obsolete. Because of that there's a new pact. The blood and bread are the new pact symbol for, it has to do with being co-heirs with christ and the 144 thousand(because those guys are heirs of the throne with him).

[Helgoland]

Nah, first off you must start by the assumption that he isn't a lunatic in Israel, because that's what we believe.

Sure - that bit was an argument aimed at non-believers. Accepting that the general religious teachings are true, however, the question still stands: What is his blood a metaphor for? If a politician says 'Berlin is my life', to grab an example from earlier, he means that he has devoted a large part of his life to the city, such a large part that his life would be unthinkable without it. If I say 'He is my right hand', I mean that I rely on him as much as on my right hand to do stuff. If I say 'This wine is my blood', what do I mean? Drinking blood was not a common way of bonding back in the day as far as I know...

[Magistrum]

Helgoland
The blood and flesh, his sacrifice, were the payment to Adam's sin, he was a perfect human, so the payment must have been from a perfect human to be of equal value. That's also why we couldn't just kill a random dude and go back to be perfect beings. His sacrifice was the equivalent exchange.
Please don't refrain to ask more, this thread is helping us all to keep up with our studies.