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Author Topic: Religion Questions Thread  (Read 56950 times)

TD1

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #405 on: December 28, 2014, 06:23:30 pm »

Do you believe the Creation story is literal? That Adam and Eve existed, etc.?

I believe Adam and Eve existed and were the first genuine humans.

What do you believe they looked like?

I don't think it matters. 

Jesus came to save everyone regardless of size, facial features or skin color.  If Adam and Eve turn out to be hairier (or whatever) than modern humans, *shrug*.

I mean, they apparently lived for centuries.  Just going by the scriptures I'd have to guess that they're slightly different from modern humans, especially seeing as how modern human groups vary so widely.
So you think they looked exceedingly similar to modern day humans? How do you reconcile that view with this view:
Quote
He could totally have done that by evolution.
Because, yes he could have done it through evolution, but that requires starting with something and ending with something different. Over the course of millions of years? A drastic change. Also, evolution is uphill- it starts with something and makes it better. How does this work with humans supposedly living hundreds of years, without modern medicine might I add. Now we're exceptionally lucky to live to a hundred. I can't see how evolution would work backwards.
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Ghills

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #406 on: December 28, 2014, 06:32:05 pm »

Do you believe the Creation story is literal? That Adam and Eve existed, etc.?

I believe Adam and Eve existed and were the first genuine humans.

What do you believe they looked like?

I don't think it matters. 

Jesus came to save everyone regardless of size, facial features or skin color.  If Adam and Eve turn out to be hairier (or whatever) than modern humans, *shrug*.

I mean, they apparently lived for centuries.  Just going by the scriptures I'd have to guess that they're slightly different from modern humans, especially seeing as how modern human groups vary so widely.
So you think they looked exceedingly similar to modern day humans? How do you reconcile that view with this view:
Quote
He could totally have done that by evolution.
Because, yes he could have done it through evolution, but that requires starting with something and ending with something different. Over the course of millions of years? A drastic change. Also, evolution is uphill- it starts with something and makes it better. How does this work with humans supposedly living hundreds of years, without modern medicine might I add. Now we're exceptionally lucky to live to a hundred. I can't see how evolution would work backwards.

I'm not sure how you got from "I don't think it matters" to "looked exceedingly similar to modern day humans".   I do think they had the same basic 2-arms 2-legs 1-head shape like people today, because we're told they were in the image of God and we have a description of God from the prophets.  But there's a huge possible variation there.

To reiterate: I don't think it matters how they looked. Just like it doesn't matter how someone looks today.

EDIT: OK, I see where the difference comes from.  No, I don't think Adam and Eve were the starting amoebas we evolved from.  That's what the previous stages of creation were for.  At some point there was a change from animal to human, and I don't know when that change was.  We believe that humans are those who are spirit children of Heavenly Father, and we don't know when that started.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 06:36:01 pm by Ghills »
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TD1

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #407 on: December 28, 2014, 06:33:55 pm »

It does matter. If they had smaller brains, they're less intelligent for example.

We're talking huge differences, not just skin colour changes.
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Ghills

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #408 on: December 28, 2014, 06:37:46 pm »

It does matter. If they had smaller brains, they're less intelligent for example.

We're talking huge differences, not just skin colour changes.

IQ doesn't matter either - someone born with a physical or mental disability is just as human.  The important point is whether or not a being is a child of God.  We know Adam and Eve were the first ones to have spirits that were children of God, based on the scriptures.  So it doesn't matter if they were furry, had brains the size of my cat's, whatever. 

Admittedly, I think it likely they were smarter than my cat. That's a pretty low bar, really. But we don't know.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 06:40:07 pm by Ghills »
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Ye know, being an usurper overseer gone mad with power isn't too bad. It's honestly not that different from being a normal overseer.
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TD1

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #409 on: December 28, 2014, 06:39:40 pm »

So something resembling an animal in every way is the Chosen of God, and yet not other animals?

What precisely is the point of that?
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Ghills

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #410 on: December 28, 2014, 06:44:14 pm »

So something resembling an animal in every way is the Chosen of God, and yet not other animals?

What precisely is the point of that?

The Chosen of God is the Savior, who is a different person than Adam. Unless you're using the term in a different way than I've ever heard it used?

The point is being a child of God, and other animals not being that.  And yeah, it's an interesting line - not one that we can see or hear or really notice by the five senses. It makes me more conscious of how I'm treating non-human being - there's nothing we can point to and say 'This makes a being not worthy of respect', so we have to treat everything with respect.  And actually LDS theology says we have a responsibility to treat other beings with respect as part of our stewardship on this earth.

LDS members are also taught that all creatures and even plants have spirits.
Pearl of Great Price Moses 3:5 For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 07:00:51 pm by Ghills »
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Ye know, being an usurper overseer gone mad with power isn't too bad. It's honestly not that different from being a normal overseer.
To summarize:
They do an epic face. If that fails, they beat said object to death with their beard.

TD1

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #411 on: December 28, 2014, 06:47:54 pm »

So something resembling an animal in every way is the Chosen of God, and yet not other animals?

What precisely is the point of that?

The Chosen of God is the Savior, who is a different person than Adam. Unless you're using the term in a different way than I've ever heard it used?

The point is being a child of God, and other animals not being that.  And yeah, it's an interesting line - not one that we can see or hear or really notice by the five senses. It makes me more conscious of how I'm treating non-human being - there's nothing we can point to and say 'This makes a being not worthy of respect'.  And actually LDS theology says we all have a responsibility to treat other beings with respect as part of our stewardship on this earth.
Chosen of God, child of God. Both mean the same thing to me. Jesus can't be the Chosen of God, cause he is God...right?
See, that whole stewardship thing makes no sense. How can Adam and Eve be given stewadship if they're exactly the same in every respect, barring of course that you think they had God's blessing or somesuch.
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Ghills

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #412 on: December 28, 2014, 06:59:16 pm »

So something resembling an animal in every way is the Chosen of God, and yet not other animals?

What precisely is the point of that?

The Chosen of God is the Savior, who is a different person than Adam. Unless you're using the term in a different way than I've ever heard it used?

The point is being a child of God, and other animals not being that.  And yeah, it's an interesting line - not one that we can see or hear or really notice by the five senses. It makes me more conscious of how I'm treating non-human being - there's nothing we can point to and say 'This makes a being not worthy of respect'.  And actually LDS theology says we all have a responsibility to treat other beings with respect as part of our stewardship on this earth.
Chosen of God, child of God. Both mean the same thing to me. Jesus can't be the Chosen of God, cause he is God...right?
See, that whole stewardship thing makes no sense. How can Adam and Eve be given stewadship if they're exactly the same in every respect, barring of course that you think they had God's blessing or somesuch.

1) I never said they were physically as animals. I said we don't know what Adam and Eve looked like aside from roughly human-shaped, and I don't think the details matter.

2) The answer is different spirits.  Some beings have animal spirits and some are children of God. We're all created by God, and owe respect and good treatment to each other, including the non-human beings here. 

[EDIT: I took this example out because re-reading it I think I'm too sick to explain that, and it's just my thoughts anyway]

If you don't believe that beings have spirits than I guess it won't make sense.

I've been vilely ill, so I'm not thinking very straight and I may just not be getting your question right or communicating badly. Sorry if so.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 07:02:05 pm by Ghills »
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Ye know, being an usurper overseer gone mad with power isn't too bad. It's honestly not that different from being a normal overseer.
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LordBucket

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #413 on: December 28, 2014, 07:02:34 pm »

How many of you believe in Creationism (or similar concept) that is to say, All That Is was made by the hand of an intelligent creator and things such as evolution did not occur? (There are of course other interpretations that you may specify in your response if you so wish).

Even as a non-christian, I'm not sure I understand why the creation vs evolution debate is any issue. If you posit an intelligent creator capable of building universes, the idea that he might implement evolution seems trivially within his capability. Arguing over the details of how it was done seems to be missing the point. As far as the Genesis account goes, it seems not such a stretch to suggest that the actual mechanics of constructing a physical universe might be difficult to describe to your average shepherd, so the account might be not entirely literal. It might be an argument against the literalness of the bible, but I don't speak to many people who claim that the bible is precisely, literally true.

As for "made by the hand of an intelligent creator" I think the whole question is making a mistake of dualism. A lot of religions come right out and say that god is everywhere, and in everything. "Omniscient and omnipresent." So how do you get from that to this notion of god as a bearded man building a universe from which he is separate and distinct? I realize that the bible does describe god in that manner, has him physically appearing and having wrestling matches with people and so forth, but I don't consider the bible a reliable source.



IIRC, that IS supposed to be literal. He meant it in the sense of 'If you're rich, you're not going to heaven. It's like trying to shove a camel through the eye of a needle'

There are plenty of biblical examples of rich men generally considered righteous. For example, that's actually kind of the entire point of the Book of Job.

Job 1:1
"There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil. 2 There were born to him seven sons and three daughters. 3 He possessed 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, and 500 female donkeys, and very many servants, so that this man was the greatest of all the people of the east."

Job 1:8
"And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”"

He's rich and  loves god, so satan suggests that Job is only righteous because it's convenient for him. So god has satan spend something like 30-40 pages taking away everything he holds dear. His money, his cattle, his wife, his health. But Job refuses to curse god, so god decided he passed the test and gives him even more more and cattle than he had before.

Other examples exist. Solomon, obviously. And David. And Abraham is an especially good example. He was rich, and yet he's the guy in the bible that god made the covenant with that was the original basis for the entire existence of judaism, the idea that the "promised land" belongs to the jews, etc.



2) I'm still torn on homosexuality, as to whether it's acceptable or not.

Leveticus 18

"18:1 The Lord said to Moses"

So this apparently is god speaking personally here. No third parties, no innuendo...he's outright giving commandments to Moses in a direct "these are the things to not do, because they're bad" context.


21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it.


There it is, right between child sacrifice and bestiality. And of the three, that's the one he says is detestable. Or "an abomination" depending on your translation.



Personally, as someone with the benefit of good deal of detachment from both sides of the issue, I think this whole abrahamic religions vs homosexuality thing is hilarious. Views on homosexuality are very obviously (to me) an arbitrary cultural phenomenon. When I was a kid, open mocking of gays was both socially acceptable and commonplace, and it wasn't all that long ago that homosexuality was considered a mental illness by the medical profession. But now the cultural tides have shifted and it's considered culturally acceptable, gays are a protected class and disapproving of them suddenly makes you a bad person to most people.

So now the abrahamic religions crowd is in the difficult position of participating in a religion that very obviously (see Leveticus above. Check out the destruction of Soddom and Gomorrah while you're at it) claims that homosexuality is a very big no-no. While being members of a society that strongly disagrees. So look at how many choose to follow the cultural norms of the day rather than the words of their own god in the own holy book. Look at them squirm and come up with excuses and suggest that they're "not sure" about it, and suggest that it's purely an antiquated "no longer necessary" rule, like the stuff in Deuteronomy about not eating pigs and not boiling lambs in their mother's milk and so forth.

Just how strong is your faith in the bible if a mere, and very recent, cultural shift about a thing is enough to make you question, according to the bible, a direct command from your god?



Frumple

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #414 on: December 28, 2014, 07:08:21 pm »

Ghills -- and other LDS folks... any christians technically, I suppose...

Does your denomination have anything to say on, well... the other creation story? The first one, which doesn't particularly go the Adam and Eve route. Disregard, attempt to reconcile, something else?
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #415 on: December 28, 2014, 07:09:53 pm »

@Th4DwArfY1: you're loosing your cool and posting your questions in an overly confrontational way, you're not trying to get answers. youre going against the spirit of the thread in a too obvious manner

let me try instead

@Ghills: you claim to believe in evolution as described by scientists, right? if that case there is no specific point in time where you could say "these" are the first humans while talking about specific individuals, not by the scientific definition of species at least. if you believe that god imbued a couple of early hominids or homo sapiens with souls, then they would have had parents that were extremely similar to them, no less than you are similar to your own parents, yet the parents would have lacked souls. do you believe this? that adam and eve were sons of very human like animals identical in every way to the first humans except for the fact that they had souls?
i understand that the bible doesnt say a lot about this so i dont expect you to speak about your doctrine or strongly held beliefs, but i would be interest in even the most superficial guess you could give.

Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #416 on: December 28, 2014, 07:35:17 pm »

Ghills -- and other LDS folks... any christians technically, I suppose...

Does your denomination have anything to say on, well... the other creation story? The first one, which doesn't particularly go the Adam and Eve route. Disregard, attempt to reconcile, something else?
I take both of them to be different variations of an oral tradition intended to explain the origin of the universe in a manner that people from that time could actually understand. "A wizard God did it" is much simpler than the Big Bang/evolution/etc. which even these days some people have trouble getting their heads around.
I don't really know how to take the Adam and Eve thing. I don't think it's literal. I suppose I'd lean more towards "it's a story that from the get-go reminds us that we're not perfect", which it kind of is anyway, but I'd rather not make any definitive call on the topic.
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TD1

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #417 on: December 28, 2014, 07:48:46 pm »

0_o
I didn't lose my cool. It's only a bit of theology.

Ghills:

I don't recall you answering the bit about how evolution is all about forward steps, whilst the story of Adam and Eve in conjunction with evolution seems to suggest at least one backwards step. A pretty large one that took centuries from our life.

Also, if they were the first, how did their children find random wives?

Also,
Quote
I said we don't know what Adam and Eve looked like aside from roughly human-shaped.
The humanoid form is fairly far down the evolutionary road. So God chose to bless one race, then within that race one clan for millenia? Hardly the action of a God who doesn't pick favourites. Why weren't there other peoples out there who were protected by God?
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #418 on: December 28, 2014, 08:09:11 pm »

you were being a bit too opinionated and apeared to be trying to tear down the guy's belief system. you aint suposed to debate people here, just satisfy your curiosity

Quote
Also, if they were the first, how did their children find random wives?
among the apes that were their close kin? seems rather easy to reconcile that part of genesis with a belief in evolution

and evolution is not all about forward steps, id argue evolution doesn have a sense of forward even. didnt many birds lose the ability to fly? though the numbers in the bible are quite astronomic its not rare that species evolve to have shorter lifespans. evolution is not about getting bigger, faster, stronger and "better", its about fiting in

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #419 on: December 28, 2014, 08:31:44 pm »

@LordBucket: I got a report directed at your post, and while most of it is fine I'd rather we not call other people hypocrites.  That may be your opinion of Christians, but that's not what this thread is for.  Just as I don't want to see people from the whole "Islam promotes terrorism" crowd (who are wrong, in the opinion of every Muslim I've met) yapping about their beliefs in here because it denegrates others, I'd rather we not be calling people hypocrites for trying to reconcile their personal values with their theology.  No, you didn't say it outright, but it was heavily implied.
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