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I like it better than the last one

It's good, but I don't see the need with the discussion thread

It's not going to go anywhere good, just lock it now.

[Frumple]

Why would they lie in a way that has so many factors considered heresy if they wanted to promote Jesus, or if they wanted to bring themselves recognition? The apostles suffered greatly at the hands of man for the sake of this.

Ah... iirc, that sort of thing was actually a fairly standard practice for, at the least, jewish writers. They'd play up the bad/sinful things a particular group did as part of the narrative, then usually have... stuff happen? Don't quite remember the particulars. To more or less establish whatever they're writing about as the proper path, because look at what terrible people have been redeemed/punished/etc. It was quite common in the hebrew bible, at least.

Similarly, Jesus cavorting with those considered the lowest of people was a fairly of bog-standard thing, more or less symbolic of the reach of the teachings, from what I recall... something along those lines, anyway. Is one of the reasons that the times women are highlighted in the biblical texts, uh... isn't necessarily an equitable (?) thing. More a narrative technique, and one quite possibly not really saying anything good about the group invoked.

[Romegypt]

I was similarly excited when I saw you were LDS ghills.

I didn't say freedom to break laws Rolan. Freedom to CHOOSE to break laws. The consequence of that choice is less mortal freedom. You get stuck in a prison or something similar.

Also, thank you for the name correction guys.

[Rolan7]

Reply to Romegypt about free will, and freedom:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I was similarly excited when I saw you were LDS ghills.

I didn't say freedom to break laws Rolan. Freedom to CHOOSE to break laws. The consequence of that choice is less mortal freedom. You get stuck in a prison or something similar.

Also, thank you for the name correction guys.

Just to be clear, you're talking about the "freedom" to commit crimes but be arrested and punished for them.  Or more generally, to revolt against authority even if it immediately gets you incarcerated and reeducated or killed.  I don't consider that actual freedom, but I see how it could be considered such.

The God of the Bible engineers situations with perfect foreknowledge, encourages people via threats or promises, and sometimes outright changes people's minds.  Assuming he's omniscient and can use these powers freely, we don't even have the "freedom" to defy him that you're talking about.  The Pharaoh was directly denied free will in regard to Moses.  God repeatedly "hardened the Pharaoh's heart", stopping him from letting the Israelites go until Egypt had suffered enough.  That's just the least subtle example, though.  If the Pharaoh had made those decisions without God's mind control, he still wouldn't have been free will - whatever decision he made, God was standing ready to change his mind.  The Pharaoh had no meaningful choice.

And just because God doesn't use that power often (or does he?) doesn't mean our choices are free.  If a human is going to make a decision he doesn't like, he'll know, and he can prevent it through inspiration, threats, or direct control.  Just as he did in the Bible.  There's no actual freedom to defy him...  He just usually allows it to happen.  And a society is not free just because the tyrant shows mercy.

And to continue discussing the question I find more interesting:

Mary did not choose to let the Holy Ghost impregnate her, she wasn't even asked.  She probably knew some of the stories of God's wrath, or at least that her cousin-in-law the priest had been struck dumb by a terrifying angel.  And here was the same angel, informing her of imminent... well... rape.  What the Holy Ghost did probably wasn't technically sex, but she was impregnated without her consent. 

And did she really even accept it?  She didn't openly defy the terrifying angel who cursed her cousin-in-law and made her cousin supernaturally pregnant.  It would have been pointless and she probably expected punishment if she expressed doubt or ingratitude.  So she agreed that the thing would happen, then *didn't tell her fiancee*.  She tried to go through with the marriage but her pregnancy was discovered.  Either she thought both visitations were just dreams, or she was trying to hide the fact that she was bearing *the Messiah*.

[Urist Mc Dwarf]

Yeah, a lot of the bible as it is commonly translated has a different meaning in Hebrew

[smeeprocket]

Reply to Romegypt about free will, and freedom:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I was similarly excited when I saw you were LDS ghills.

I didn't say freedom to break laws Rolan. Freedom to CHOOSE to break laws. The consequence of that choice is less mortal freedom. You get stuck in a prison or something similar.

Also, thank you for the name correction guys.

Just to be clear, you're talking about the "freedom" to commit crimes but be arrested and punished for them.  Or more generally, to revolt against authority even if it immediately gets you incarcerated and reeducated or killed.  I don't consider that actual freedom, but I see how it could be considered such.

The God of the Bible engineers situations with perfect foreknowledge, encourages people via threats or promises, and sometimes outright changes people's minds.  Assuming he's omniscient and can use these powers freely, we don't even have the "freedom" to defy him that you're talking about.  The Pharaoh was directly denied free will in regard to Moses.  God repeatedly "hardened the Pharaoh's heart", stopping him from letting the Israelites go until Egypt had suffered enough.  That's just the least subtle example, though.  If the Pharaoh had made those decisions without God's mind control, he still wouldn't have been free will - whatever decision he made, God was standing ready to change his mind.  The Pharaoh had no meaningful choice.

And just because God doesn't use that power often (or does he?) doesn't mean our choices are free.  If a human is going to make a decision he doesn't like, he'll know, and he can prevent it through inspiration, threats, or direct control.  Just as he did in the Bible.  There's no actual freedom to defy him...  He just usually allows it to happen.  And a society is not free just because the tyrant shows mercy.

And to continue discussing the question I find more interesting:

Mary did not choose to let the Holy Ghost impregnate her, she wasn't even asked.  She probably knew some of the stories of God's wrath, or at least that her cousin-in-law the priest had been struck dumb by a terrifying angel.  And here was the same angel, informing her of imminent... well... rape.  What the Holy Ghost did probably wasn't technically sex, but she was impregnated without her consent. 

And did she really even accept it?  She didn't openly defy the terrifying angel who cursed her cousin-in-law and made her cousin supernaturally pregnant.  It would have been pointless and she probably expected punishment if she expressed doubt or ingratitude.  So she agreed that the thing would happen, then *didn't tell her fiancee*.  She tried to go through with the marriage but her pregnancy was discovered.  Either she thought both visitations were just dreams, or she was trying to hide the fact that she was bearing *the Messiah*.

This

Christians

I was talking to a friend about this. Who is your favorite woman in the bible. Mine is Ruth, though I hear Rebecca is awesome, but I have never read anything about her.

[TheDarkStar]

Christians

I was talking to a friend about this. Who is your favorite woman in the bible. Mine is Ruth, though I hear Rebecca is awesome, but I have never read anything about her.

There's always Gael (sp?), who drove a tent spike into the head of an enemy leader in Judges.

[UXLZ]

@Rolan
More on the free will stuff, the thing I find interesting about it is that 'God' is essentially saying 'You are all free to choose as you please, though if you do something I don't want you to do your soul will be eternally tortured in the most horrific ways possible due to a mistake I/your ancestors made a long time ago. Happy choosing.'
Actually, for the most part the whole thing with free will (unless I missed something is that) 'Free will is a thing because God says so.'

Christians: Why do you believe that God is all-loving, all-forgiving when It has actions in the bible (though I'll admit I'm missing the full picture) that could easily be interpreted otherwise?

[Cheeetar]

Christians: Why do you continue to maintain that God is all-loving, all-forgiving (unless you don't do that, in which case this question is invalid). when It knowingly condemned an uncountable number of people to unthinkable eternal torment at the dawn of creation? Before that, even.
Now, I'm not saying that people like Hitler should go to heaven, but... Well, if God is actually all-loving and all-forgiving then that is where he should be.

Hi!

2. Questions must be exactly that: a question.  You may not make value judgements in your questions, nor are you allowed to state your own belief when asking questions.  You may ask questions about things you have heard about a person's religion, but they must be framed as things you have heard and not as facts.

This isn't really the place to finally convince all of Christianity that their beliefs are bunkum- they've probably spent a lot more time considering their faith than you have, and you're not going to cause them to seriously doubt their faith by asking such loaded questions.

[UXLZ]

Christians: Why do you continue to maintain that God is all-loving, all-forgiving (unless you don't do that, in which case this question is invalid). when It knowingly condemned an uncountable number of people to unthinkable eternal torment at the dawn of creation? Before that, even.
Now, I'm not saying that people like Hitler should go to heaven, but... Well, if God is actually all-loving and all-forgiving then that is where he should be.

Hi!

2. Questions must be exactly that: a question.  You may not make value judgements in your questions, nor are you allowed to state your own belief when asking questions.  You may ask questions about things you have heard about a person's religion, but they must be framed as things you have heard and not as facts.

This isn't really the place to finally convince all of Christianity that their beliefs are bunkum- they've probably spent a lot more time considering their faith than you have, and you're not going to cause them to seriously doubt their faith by asking such loaded questions.

I have absolutely no belief I'm going to convince anyone of anything. Better people than me have tried and failed to convince people on otherwise on topics they have far less personal investment in. However, I'll edit everything but the question out of the post, if it's incredibly important.

Oh, and to preemptively respond in case you think the question still isn't proper: The reason I'm asking it that way rather than simply 'Why do you believe God is all-loving?' is because a question like that will likely be met by an answer such as 'Because the bible/God says so'. (Not saying the people here would answer like that, but I'd prefer to be sure)
By asking it the way I am, the answer I'm looking for is if there is anything I've missed that lets us know that God is all-loving and all-forgiving despite actions in the bible that suggest otherwise.

[Orange Wizard]

The Bible doesn't actually describe God as all-loving. That came about in the (notably more recent) fanfics, just like all the highly detailed demon-related nonsense.

[UXLZ]

I see, that makes significantly more sense given God's actions. By fanfic, though, do you mean the New Testament? (Or whatever the recent versions of the Bible are called.)

[Orange Wizard]

No, I mean stuff that's been made up separately to the Bible but is still treated as canon. There are various creeds and confessions that are supposed to be summations of teaching in the Bible, and nobody really agrees which ones are accurate and which ones are not. The Canons of Dort are an excellent example of something particularly contentious.
The "God is all-loving" thing is fairly recent AFAIK, at least in terms where people start thinking it's the whole point of Christianity. I guess "fanfic" isn't quite right, but it's more along the lines of people glossing over most of the Bible and focussing on the nice and happy bits.

[SHAD0Wdump]

Everyone

What do you think 'All-Loving' means?

[UXLZ]

Literally:

Spoiler: Loving Defined (click to show/hide)

adjective
adjective: loving
feeling or showing love or great care.
"a loving father"
synonyms:   affectionate, fond, devoted, adoring, doting, solicitous, demonstrative; More
antonyms:   cold, cold-hearted, cruel
enjoying the specified activity or thing.
suffix: -loving
"a fun-loving girl"

All-loving would mean either feeling or showing love/care for All That Exists.

Commonly Accepted Meaning: (In regards to God's all-lovingness at least (I think))
Greatly loves/cares for all of humanity. Wishes to forgive everything. Reason behind sending Its son to atone for our sins.

Personal Interpretation:
To truly be all-loving is beyond human comprehension. We can try to understand it through definitions but it is something we can never truly know. It is beyond us. We cannot possibly imagine it. 

[LordBucket]

Everyone

What do you think 'All-Loving' means?

Context is everything. But if you're asking me personally, it's helpful to understand that "love" isn't a feeling. It's a lower-density euphemism for "is."

"All is One," but we, as individuals don't perceive the Whole. Imagine a bucket filled with water. It's one pool of water. If you were to slide barriers into the water you could break it up into smaller pools. Suddenly now this bit of water separated from the rest can be a different pool of water than that bit of water over there also separated from the whole. That's basically what we, as individuals, are.

"Love" is the state that exists when those barriers aren't there. Or possibly, the act of those barriers being removed. This process is a question of knowing what we perceive as "other" and accepting it, and by this process we and it cease to be "other" to one another. We become One.

"All loving" is the state or process of knowing and accepting All That Is.

When somebody makes reference to an "all loving god," "God" is "All loving" because God knows all (omniscience) and is all (omnipresencse.)

The concept of the devil as an adversarial other is, actually...sinful. In the orginal meaning of the word: "missing the mark." A simple error of duality. God and creation are the same phenomenon. Observer and observed are together a single event.

To be all loving means to know, accept and be One with All.