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I like it better than the last one

It's good, but I don't see the need with the discussion thread

It's not going to go anywhere good, just lock it now.

[smeeprocket]

To any Christian: Is there any evidence other than the word of Jesus himself to suggest Jesus is anything more than just another prophet? Moses could do miracles as well, after all, and it's quite possible a spin could be put on these holy things to make him seem like the son of God. Even if it wasn't deliberate deception, things down the years can be exaggerated.

Not really. He was the only prophet to be raised from the dead AFAIK, but there are lots of other stories (not Christian, of course) about children of god/s and poorly-explained resurrections.

There's always some distortion with ancient tales. Especially for the first few thousand years in human history, where the stuff wasn't even written down.

Whether or not that was the first few thousand years of human history is up for debate. The Sumerians might take offense to that, were they still alive.

[4maskwolf]

To any Christian: Is there any evidence other than the word of Jesus himself to suggest Jesus is anything more than just another prophet? Moses could do miracles as well, after all, and it's quite possible a spin could be put on these holy things to make him seem like the son of God. Even if it wasn't deliberate deception, things down the years can be exaggerated.

Not really. He was the only prophet to be raised from the dead AFAIK, but there are lots of other stories (not Christian, of course) about children of god/s and poorly-explained resurrections.

There's always some distortion with ancient tales. Especially for the first few thousand years in human history, where the stuff wasn't even written down.

Whether or not that was the first few thousand years of human history is up for debate. The Sumerians might take offense to that, were they still alive.

Again, while not a major infraction, I'd rather avoid commentary.

[chaoticag]

okay I guess this is a big one. What is the general stance on homosexuality within Islam. I'm not sure on this because I know some Muslim countries are actually okay with it in some instances, but in others, things don't go very well if you are gay.

Hmm, well, there's a mosque that opened this September in Scandinavia that allowed gay marriages, and another one in Britain. It's a somewhat minority view I think. I might be wrong though. Younger generation definitely seems more accepting. I know there's some stuff as it relates to intersex people born that way, but vague on the details. It seems more accepted that you can marry someone as long as you reassign your gender to match it seems? Stuff gets a bit weird there too.

I haven't really explored that aspect of Islam much, but I think we're going to see a shift in thought soon enough. Well, soon being within the next ten years. It's prolly worth mentioning that the world is moving pretty fast here in the Middle East though. Twenty years ago, Dubai wasn't on the map. Forty-Five years ago, it was a British colony (not the UAE in this case, it was a separate emirate before). This is super rapid growth, compounded with the propagation of unprecedented communication worldwide.

And for better or worse, the Arab world is a representative of Islam. We speak the language it came down in.

So yeah, this is prolly getting old, but nothing I can give a straight and simple answer to. Which I guess is to be expected. Especially with how fast LGBTQ* stuff has been advancing as well.

If this seems a bit confused, I might clarify later, I need to get some sleep, so it'll be a while before my next response.

[TD1]

To any Christian: Is there any evidence other than the word of Jesus himself to suggest Jesus is anything more than just another prophet? Moses could do miracles as well, after all, and it's quite possible a spin could be put on these holy things to make him seem like the son of God. Even if it wasn't deliberate deception, things down the years can be exaggerated.

Not really. He was the only prophet to be raised from the dead AFAIK, but there are lots of other stories (not Christian, of course) about children of god/s and poorly-explained resurrections.

There's always some distortion with ancient tales. Especially for the first few thousand years in human history, where the stuff wasn't even written down.

It seems a rather weak thing to base faith on, then. Faith requires a lack of knowledge to require it, but you can at least have a strong foundation. Jesus is the same as any other Prophet from what I can see, except from the unique (in Christianity) raise from the dead miracle. Sure, he was a good prophet, but I see no evidence bar Jesus himself (or what was written that he said by others) saying he is the son of god. Any prophet could have done that, and depending on the import or significance of their miracles be believed. So long as they can claim they fulfill the odd prophecy, of course.

Which leads into another question for Christians:

Why is prophecy no longer practiced? Up until the middle of Elizabeth's reign it was practiced in England at least.

[smeeprocket]

To any Christian: Is there any evidence other than the word of Jesus himself to suggest Jesus is anything more than just another prophet? Moses could do miracles as well, after all, and it's quite possible a spin could be put on these holy things to make him seem like the son of God. Even if it wasn't deliberate deception, things down the years can be exaggerated.

Not really. He was the only prophet to be raised from the dead AFAIK, but there are lots of other stories (not Christian, of course) about children of god/s and poorly-explained resurrections.

There's always some distortion with ancient tales. Especially for the first few thousand years in human history, where the stuff wasn't even written down.

Whether or not that was the first few thousand years of human history is up for debate. The Sumerians might take offense to that, were they still alive.

Again, while not a major infraction, I'd rather avoid commentary.

Sorry. I wasn't entirely sure if he believed the earth was 6000 years old or not.

the 6000 year old theory actually comes from a contemporary christian scholar, and not from the Bible iirc.

Orange Wizard

how do you reconcile civilizations like the ancient Sumerians with the concept of the Earth being 6000 years old.

Hmm going to ruminate on some more questions.

[Orange Wizard]

Orange Wizard

how do you reconcile civilizations like the ancient Sumerians with the concept of the Earth being 6000 years old.

Dunno.

...

It seems a rather weak thing to base faith on, then. Faith requires a lack of knowledge to require it, but you can at least have a strong foundation. Jesus is the same as any other Prophet from what I can see, except from the unique (in Christianity) raise from the dead miracle. Sure, he was a good prophet, but I see no evidence bar Jesus himself (or what was written that he said by others) saying he is the son of god. Any prophet could have done that, and depending on the import or significance of their miracles be believed. So long as they can claim they fulfill the odd prophecy, of course.

Fair enough. It does require a bit of circular logic - that the Bible is the Word of God, and therefore "preserved" (for wont of a better word) by God, and therefore the claims within the Bible about it being the Word of God are accurate because it is the Word of God.
I can definitely understand why people would be put off by that thinking. I'm not trying to endorse it, either.

Why is prophecy no longer practiced? Up until the middle of Elizabeth's reign it was practiced in England at least.

The reason I usually hear is that after the letters and whatnot of the New Testament were being spread around more, prophecy was no longer necessary. Prior to that, prophets were effectively relaying God's word to the people. Now, we have it on paper, so no more prophets.
As to the Elizabethan prophets you mentioned, I would have to lean towards them being fakes.

[TD1]

But there are those who claim to be prophets now, much like they did then. They're just not acknowledged by any church except, perhaps, their own.

[Orange Wizard]

But there are those who claim to be prophets now, much like they did then. They're just not acknowledged by any church except, perhaps, their own.

Yeah, I know. I still think they're fakes though.

[4maskwolf]

Hey uh, Orange?

Can you and people who are asking you questions just take note of rule 1.

All it takes is a pm, bud.  I hate to crack down so hard on people, but the rules have to be followed to keep this from turning into a madhouse, particularly since I opened it to all religions (which tends to be a sore point, if past experience has anything to say).

[Orange Wizard]

Oops, sorry. PM sent.

[Bohandas]

I can amswer questions about Discordianism and the Church of the SubGenius BTW

[Baffler]

I can amswer questions about Discordianism and the Church of the SubGenius BTW

I'm actually curious... There's not really any polite way to put it, but is Discordianism a serious thing, or is it a parody? Everything I've read seems to be deliberately ambiguous on the matter.

[smirk]

I can amswer questions about Discordianism and the Church of the SubGenius BTW

Same here! Practicing Discordian and dues-paid Subgenius. Might as well join in since this thread isn't strictly Abrahamic.

is Discordianism a serious thing, or is it a parody?

The best answer you're gonna get there is "yes". Or possibly "Mu". The Principia Discordia borrows a lot from certain strains of Zen Buddhism, so there's an emphasis on reframing rather than objectivity. Or another way: it's a parody, which is why it should be taken so seriously. But it's also serious, so you shouldn't give it any weight.

On a crappy tablet right now, so typing is difficult. Will expand on it later if you want.

[Dutchling]

It looks like this thread is a bit better managed than the previous few, so PTW.

I'm not religious any more, so I doubt anyone has anything to ask me. I was raised as a Protestant though, mostly Salvation Army. As far as Protestant subdivisions goes, I've always found the Army to be pretty chill. They don't do baptism or Eucharist which is the main reason Protestant Christians all hate each other here.

[Bohandas]

I can amswer questions about Discordianism and the Church of the SubGenius BTW

I'm actually curious... There's not really any polite way to put it, but is Discordianism a serious thing, or is it a parody? Everything I've read seems to be deliberately ambiguous on the matter.

It's more of a philosophy than a religion. The mythological aspect isn't meant to be taken literally; its more like Heracles and Venus turning up as characters in Aesop's fables.

It does have a religious aspect, but it relates to normal religion in the same manner in which an upside-down toilet relates to Michelangelo's statue of King David.

--------------------

The Church of the SubGenius offers some statements on the matter of the parodic mythology/theology of these faiths

"This is a joke, but it's a very serious joke. It's A joke you can believe in"

NOW -- go for a walk and keep walking until you stub your toe, get mugged, or until your feet really hurt. This will remind you that what you have been reading is valid ONLY IN YOUR HEAD and just a bunch of philosophical crap to begin with. There's no sense in getting permanently cosmic-headed, even if you could (and most yogis are only faking it to themselves). You still have to eat, and your shit still stinks. There IS such a thing as getting TOO HIGH, and death is a waste (though that is the ONLY reason you should be afraid of it). Religious yay-hoos can keep blabbering glib crap forever, us included, and it's a good flushing-out of the brainpan, but THAT'S ALL IT IS. The rest is between you and "Bob." Good luck, SUCKERS!!

--------------------

SubGenius also describes itself as "inherently bogus".

But bogusness and hypocrisy and corruption are cynically/sarcastically seen as the unifying element of all religion (with western religion also generally possessing elements of hypocrisy and corruption and eastern religions posessing the additional unifying quality of all being unnecessarily inscrutable and delphian; SubGenius mimics the former and Discordian mimics the latter. But I digress...). And also, by being openly bogus, a form of the Liar's Paradox is invoked, whereby at least they're right about not being right, ostensibly putting them ahead or religions that aren't straight about anything.

--------------------

There's also the implication that all religion is bogus and therefore all religious experiences are caused by human psychology and therefore you theoretically could just as easily get the same benefits from a fun religion without all of the inconvenient guilt and obedience and self-denial that might seem necessary if you believed the experience to derive from an external divine power. (With the exception of those extreme self-denial and/or penitence related "religious experiences" which could be more properly classified as the direct effect on starvation or blood loss on the human brain. But even those are theoretically made more convenient by the knowledge that you don't have to be thinking some particular pious thing while fasting or whatever).

Personally I've occasionally experienced the kind of thing that some people describe feeling during prayer while contemplating entities that I know to be fictitious.

"Pull the wool over your own eyes and relax in the safety of your own delusions" -Ivan Stang

--------------------

Also. It must be mentioned that I could be reading way too much into a lot of this stuff. And it may contradict other followers' interpretations.

Luckily this is also explicitly permitted:

From Dobbs came the prophetic utterances which are now severe and compulsory Tenets of the Church. He popularized the concept of Critical-Paranoiac Follies Evaluation by which we know that "...any inanity spouted by a SubGenius at any given time automatically becomes part of orthodox SubGenius Liturgy." It is one of the single greatest Tenets, for by its own very token one can also deny it later. It is erasable. For instance, a guilty SubGenius speaks an Inanity which later proves anti-nonprofit. He can then insist, "No, I didn't say that. It was merely my 'image'...my 'id' took over temporarily." Logically, then, nothing that a SubGenius says is any more or less true and consecrable than any other thing he just happens to utter - even (and especially) if they are contradictory.