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I like it better than the last one

It's good, but I don't see the need with the discussion thread

It's not going to go anywhere good, just lock it now.

[Bohandas]

Awhhhh, no more discussion ):

Did the old thread really have so many problems?

No it didn't. But nevertheless the people involved with the thread were unable to deal with conversation that wasn't overly deferential and conciliatory.

The trinity, which in the theological sense can be explained as "Three that are one", in practice many if not most christians fail to grasp this and give jesus a distinct position along side god and give a different function to each, sometimes seeing jesus as inferior to god.

This very question was the subject of the debate at the First Nicene Council that I mentioned earlier which became so heated that Saint Nicholas ended up punching another clergyman named Arius in the face.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_controversy

[smeeprocket]

haha, yea there are some pretty badass Saints, tbh.

[chaoticag]

chaoticag

What are, at least some of, the actual views on women in the Quran? Like I don't know what exactly to ask but in Western society, the news, media, etc makes it sound awful, but I know Muslim feminists and members of the LGBTQIA+ community. (Not closely, or I would ask them.)

Well, this gets tricky again. You can take a strict view like my mother does. You have to cover your hair, although covering the face is more a cultural thing. In 12th grade though, the teacher in charge of religious studies interpreted the passage as saying dress modestly, so not necessarily cover the hair. In this case, the covering the whole body thing was a holdover from pre-Islamic times.

All Muslims are encouraged to get educated though, so I've always found the Taliban to be jerks, to put it very lightly.

Ultimately, the case tends to be people interpret the Quran differently, and well, the language is recognizably Arabic, but it uses a lot of words not in common parlance anymore. Literalism tends to be the big force around here, but there's also plenty that take a more metaphorical route with the Quran, including many of the Golden Age thinkers.

So yeah, it's another it's complicated answer.

[smeeprocket]

What are your thoughts on this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

[chaoticag]

What are your thoughts on this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

Touchy, I'd like to maintain some distance here. It's a common enough subject that gets brought up by quite a few people that tend to push for Muslim hate.That kinda stuff is going to bite me as hard as any Muslim to be blunt, because I doubt those people are going to look past my skin tone and name.

[smeeprocket]

What are your thoughts on this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

Touchy, I'd like to maintain some distance here. It's a common enough subject that gets brought up by quite a few people that tend to push for Muslim hate.That kinda stuff is going to bite me as hard as any Muslim to be blunt, because I doubt those people are going to look past my skin tone and name.

Actually I was reading it and she was an interesting person. But the issue sort of has to be raised. Inasmuch as I would pull out the slavery thing with Christians. How does Islam reconcile itself with Mohamed having a 9 year old bride, assuming we are discussing members of the faith that do not condone such an act. (obviously it is easy to reconcile it if you agree with it.)

I would like to add that I don't want to reduce Aisha to just being a child bride, she is a powerful character in her own right.

edit: if you want me to just skip that question, remember you can opt for that. It's part of the rules and that is fine.

edit edit: Let me just skip to a broader question. You talked about dress, but you didn't really clarify other ways in which Islam perceives women.

I note that Aisha narrated over 2k hadiths, but I don't know what a hadith is.

What is the Islam view of women in leadership? What is it's view of women within the household?

[chaoticag]

Sorry, I'm used to people reducing her to a child bride. Powerful figure, but I'll pass on answering. It's a well I'm used to finding very poisoned.

[smeeprocket]

Sorry, I'm used to people reducing her to a child bride. Powerful figure, but I'll pass on answering. It's a well I'm used to finding very poisoned.

okay, I edited with another question.

[4maskwolf]

Do you only take the parts about Jesus as truth, as opposed to parts before or after? Because some of those are after Jesus. That's a lot of the bible to cut out, though it certainly makes my questions more specific.

No.  My personal belief is that every religious tradition has something to say about human nature, and that their scriptures are meaningful in a spiritual way, so no, I don't believe that Jesus is the only part of the bible or religion in general that is true.  I believe that, should one believe in Jesus as the son of God, it makes the most sense to look at his words and actions first, before the works of the other Christian writers or even the Jewish writers.  As I said earlier, Jesus was the friend of those who had none, the supporter of those who were despised by society.  Depending on the Gospel you choose to read, women play a more or less influential role in the story, but there is no signs in any of them that Jesus believes that women are less than men.  The writings of Paul, on the other hand, do have (if I read your source correctly) passages to that effect.  I believe that Paul, while perhaps inspired by the Holy Spirit in his writings, was influenced in his writings by his humanity.  My interpretation of the Gospels is that Jesus preaches about forgiveness, equitability, and inclusion, and as such... I'm not actually sure where I'm going with this.  Your original question was about the view of women, and I haven't met a Christian in person who has used religion as a reason to "prove" that women are inferior.

To be quite frank, that article seems like it is raging against something I don't see many people actually believing.  It draws evidence primarily from the Jewish books of law (I won't comment on the authorship of these because I'm not Jewish, don't know what the traditional Jewish belief is as to their authorship and don't want to offend any Jews) and from the writings of Paul.  Perhaps an interesting thing to remember is the fact that the Jewish law is part of the "old covenant" (to use the Christian term), brought about when God gave Moses his commandments.  However, Jesus comes to bring a new covenant (citation needed, probably many instances of this mentioned in the gospels), so in some ways it renders the old covenant void for those who accept the new one.  The writings of Paul seem to draw directly from one of the two creation stories in Genesis, which, as I just noted, is one of TWO different ones.

Damn it, where's a bible when you actually need one.

[chaoticag]

Well, lemme answer one at a time

I note that Aisha narrated over 2k hadiths, but I don't know what a hadith is.

A Hadit is, well. The Prophet Mohammed did not want his every word written down and memorized, just the Quran. Following his death though, people still felt that God's messanger was the best guide as far as how to live your life goes, so people that knew him, the Sahaba, would recount events and sayings. They ranged from people saying "I heard him say" to people saying, "Well, he said she said that they said that Mohammed said..."

So Hadiths are effectively the second most holy book. Though again, each branch has it's own version, with a minority of scholars rejecting it entirely, because Mohammed didn't want his every word written down, or they feel the Hadiths were not researched well enough to depend upon.

A classic one for example (I forget who it was that said this, maybe Abu Huraira), recounts how when someone had asked the Prophet who of his two parents should he love more, he replied "Your Mother", and the man had asked, "and then whom", and the reply was "Your Mother", "and then Whom", "your mother" and when he had asked a fourth, the Prophet replied "Your Father".

So yeah, that's an example of one.

edit edit: Let me just skip to a broader question. You talked about dress, but you didn't really clarify other ways in which Islam perceives women.

What is the Islam view of women in leadership? What is it's view of women within the household?

Well, I'll go ahead and lump these two? As far as I'm aware, the dress tends to be one of the more restrictive things. Women had the right to divorce, and inherit and own property.Besides that, we run a gamut of attitudes backed up by religious reasoning from stay at home, stay with a man, to being able to work. Traditionally, there's a push for gender segregation, but all schools I've gone to other than my university have been co-ed.

I don't think I can be too more specific than that, given there are a billion Muslims. I regularly say that since there's a billion Muslims there's a billion Islams.

[smeeprocket]

Do you only take the parts about Jesus as truth, as opposed to parts before or after? Because some of those are after Jesus. That's a lot of the bible to cut out, though it certainly makes my questions more specific.

No.  My personal belief is that every religious tradition has something to say about human nature, and that their scriptures are meaningful in a spiritual way, so no, I don't believe that Jesus is the only part of the bible or religion in general that is true.  I believe that, should one believe in Jesus as the son of God, it makes the most sense to look at his words and actions first, before the works of the other Christian writers or even the Jewish writers.  As I said earlier, Jesus was the friend of those who had none, the supporter of those who were despised by society.  Depending on the Gospel you choose to read, women play a more or less influential role in the story, but there is no signs in any of them that Jesus believes that women are less than men.  The writings of Paul, on the other hand, do have (if I read your source correctly) passages to that effect.  I believe that Paul, while perhaps inspired by the Holy Spirit in his writings, was influenced in his writings by his humanity.  My interpretation of the Gospels is that Jesus preaches about forgiveness, equitability, and inclusion, and as such... I'm not actually sure where I'm going with this.  Your original question was about the view of women, and I haven't met a Christian in person who has used religion as a reason to "prove" that women are inferior.

To be quite frank, that article seems like it is raging against something I don't see many people actually believing.  It draws evidence primarily from the Jewish books of law (I won't comment on the authorship of these because I'm not Jewish, don't know what the traditional Jewish belief is as to their authorship and don't want to offend any Jews) and from the writings of Paul.  Perhaps an interesting thing to remember is the fact that the Jewish law is part of the "old covenant" (to use the Christian term), brought about when God gave Moses his commandments.  However, Jesus comes to bring a new covenant (citation needed, probably many instances of this mentioned in the gospels), so in some ways it renders the old covenant void for those who accept the new one.  The writings of Paul seem to draw directly from one of the two creation stories in Genesis, which, as I just noted, is one of TWO different ones.

Damn it, where's a bible when you actually need one.

You must not be American or familiar with our people, because evangelists love doubling down on Paul's teachings, and even the Old Testament.

I haven't tested this for accuracy, but I did get some quotes from it: http://biblehub.com/

There's bibles all over the place on the internet.

My dad has this awesome bible with annotations and multiple translations. Too bad I can't find something like that.

But if God spoke to Paul and the other apostles, it seems like he would choose to speak to people that would relay his words in a way that didn't start oppression and wars. Since he would know that was going to happen.

[TD1]

To any Christian: Is there any evidence other than the word of Jesus himself to suggest Jesus is anything more than just another prophet? Moses could do miracles as well, after all, and it's quite possible a spin could be put on these holy things to make him seem like the son of God. Even if it wasn't deliberate deception, things down the years can be exaggerated.

[Bohandas]

Do you only take the parts about Jesus as truth, as opposed to parts before or after? Because some of those are after Jesus. That's a lot of the bible to cut out, though it certainly makes my questions more specific.

No.  My personal belief is that every religious tradition has something to say about human nature, and that their scriptures are meaningful in a spiritual way, so no, I don't believe that Jesus is the only part of the bible or religion in general that is true.  I believe that, should one believe in Jesus as the son of God, it makes the most sense to look at his words and actions first, before the works of the other Christian writers or even the Jewish writers.  As I said earlier, Jesus was the friend of those who had none, the supporter of those who were despised by society.  Depending on the Gospel you choose to read, women play a more or less influential role in the story, but there is no signs in any of them that Jesus believes that women are less than men.  The writings of Paul, on the other hand, do have (if I read your source correctly) passages to that effect.  I believe that Paul, while perhaps inspired by the Holy Spirit in his writings, was influenced in his writings by his humanity.  My interpretation of the Gospels is that Jesus preaches about forgiveness, equitability, and inclusion, and as such... I'm not actually sure where I'm going with this.  Your original question was about the view of women, and I haven't met a Christian in person who has used religion as a reason to "prove" that women are inferior.

To be quite frank, that article seems like it is raging against something I don't see many people actually believing.  It draws evidence primarily from the Jewish books of law (I won't comment on the authorship of these because I'm not Jewish, don't know what the traditional Jewish belief is as to their authorship and don't want to offend any Jews) and from the writings of Paul.  Perhaps an interesting thing to remember is the fact that the Jewish law is part of the "old covenant" (to use the Christian term), brought about when God gave Moses his commandments.  However, Jesus comes to bring a new covenant (citation needed, probably many instances of this mentioned in the gospels), so in some ways it renders the old covenant void for those who accept the new one.  The writings of Paul seem to draw directly from one of the two creation stories in Genesis, which, as I just noted, is one of TWO different ones.

Damn it, where's a bible when you actually need one.

You must not be American or familiar with our people, because evangelists love doubling down on Paul's teachings, and even the Old Testament.

I haven't tested this for accuracy, but I did get some quotes from it: http://biblehub.com/

There's bibles all over the place on the internet.

My dad has this awesome bible with annotations and multiple translations. Too bad I can't find something like that.

But if God spoke to Paul and the other apostles, it seems like he would choose to speak to people that would relay his words in a way that didn't start oppression and wars. Since he would know that was going to happen.

Biblehub itself offers annotations and parallel translations. Both of individual verses and complete chapters

[smeeprocket]

Well, lemme answer one at a time

I note that Aisha narrated over 2k hadiths, but I don't know what a hadith is.

A Hadit is, well. The Prophet Mohammed did not want his every word written down and memorized, just the Quran. Following his death though, people still felt that God's messanger was the best guide as far as how to live your life goes, so people that knew him, the Sahaba, would recount events and sayings. They ranged from people saying "I heard him say" to people saying, "Well, he said she said that they said that Mohammed said..."

So Hadiths are effectively the second most holy book. Though again, each branch has it's own version, with a minority of scholars rejecting it entirely, because Mohammed didn't want his every word written down, or they feel the Hadiths were not researched well enough to depend upon.

A classic one for example (I forget who it was that said this, maybe Abu Huraira), recounts how when someone had asked the Prophet who of his two parents should he love more, he replied "Your Mother", and the man had asked, "and then whom", and the reply was "Your Mother", "and then Whom", "your mother" and when he had asked a fourth, the Prophet replied "Your Father".

So yeah, that's an example of one.

edit edit: Let me just skip to a broader question. You talked about dress, but you didn't really clarify other ways in which Islam perceives women.

What is the Islam view of women in leadership? What is it's view of women within the household?

Well, I'll go ahead and lump these two? As far as I'm aware, the dress tends to be one of the more restrictive things. Women had the right to divorce, and inherit and own property.Besides that, we run a gamut of attitudes backed up by religious reasoning from stay at home, stay with a man, to being able to work. Traditionally, there's a push for gender segregation, but all schools I've gone to other than my university have been co-ed.

I don't think I can be too more specific than that, given there are a billion Muslims. I regularly say that since there's a billion Muslims there's a billion Islams.

okay I guess this is a big one. What is the general stance on homosexuality within Islam. I'm not sure on this because I know some Muslim countries are actually okay with it in some instances, but in others, things don't go very well if you are gay.

[Orange Wizard]

To any Christian: Is there any evidence other than the word of Jesus himself to suggest Jesus is anything more than just another prophet? Moses could do miracles as well, after all, and it's quite possible a spin could be put on these holy things to make him seem like the son of God. Even if it wasn't deliberate deception, things down the years can be exaggerated.

Not really. He was the only prophet to be raised from the dead AFAIK, but there are lots of other stories (not Christian, of course) about children of god/s and poorly-explained resurrections.

There's always some distortion with ancient tales. Especially for the first few thousand years in human history, where the stuff wasn't even written down.