When did pw agree to the price of the PEW? I know he said the design worked, but did he give a price quote anywhere? I'm honestly not sure at this point, could you show me perhaps?
I skimmed over the Heph thread and didn't see anything. It's possible it was said in IRC or OOC, but I'm not gonna search through those. PM is also possible, but, well, I can't examine those for obvious reasons.
And the definition of power is something like 'The ability or capacity to act or do something effectively' or ' The ability or official capacity to exercise control; authority' (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/power) and according to that, no, I don't think we really have power. We have a great responsibility (to be honest and such), for sure!
Okay, you have a good point here. "Power", literally taken, is not the term people need here. "Influence" is. And I say that the council has a great deal of influence.
If said person also listens to the counterarguments in the thread, and judges impartially, then the council is just another voice. But, at the most, we have some soft 'power' in the form of a listening ear with the person actually deciding.
Of course, this goes on the idea that pw does indeed follow the discussions and gives his fair judgement based on all the data. If it were the case he doesn't really care that much and just skims things and goes "Yeah sure council, whatever", then the situation changes drastically. So, do you think this is the case? Far as I see it, he does care and tries to follow, but it can be a bit too much at times.
My interpretation of the situation is that the latter is very much the case. PW Hates tinker, and has said he never looks at the Heph thread because it's full of it. He's said that he prices things essentially on a whim without thinking hard about it. He's admitted that he's horrible at balancing, and then formed a group of players to do the balancing for him. Assuming all of these are true, why would he then read ALL the discussion the council does, PLUS all the discussion that was already being done, and then analyze both those viewpoints and form a new decision from them? It's more work than before, and doesn't get around any of the problems he had with the old method.
Now, you might be privy to more knowledge than me--Maybe PW hops into your council discussions and actually participates. In that case, you're completely right. Does he?
HEP = 2-4(black box) + 5-7 (generator). So, say box=3 and generator=6
PEW = 3 box +6 generator + 1 (focusing) + 2 (cooling)
2 PEW on assaultsuit: 2*3 (box) + 2*1 (focusing) + 2*3 (generator, because I kinda doubt the assaultsuit has so much extra juice it can completely take over the extra power needed from two 5-7 token generators without hampering normal suit function) + 2 * 3 (all the rewiring and mods and whatever needed to connect the weapon system to the suit's generators and outer armor, and adaptations so the armor can function as a radiator) = 20, or 10 per PEW.
...Uh-huh. So, the wiring to reroute power from the generator, plus reroute heat into the armor, costs half as much as said generator? Eh, sure, doesn't really matter.
This is twenty tokens of parts. Compare to the Long-Range cannon, which is bigger than a LESHO and comes with it's own armor on top of the BS's armor. A LESHO costs 18 tokens, so I really doubt that the larger armored version costs only one token more. So, unless you want to revise your estimate,
price is irrelevant in this argument--balance is the only concern. We can stop nattering about it.
...And I can't take my own advice so how about this: Say that the PEWs run off the backup capacitors in the AS. You can only fire continually for two minutes (eight shots) before draining them. It would probably take only one minute to recharge, since the generator is also charging and is apparently of a similar cost to the HEP's, considering what Paris said, but let's call it two minutes anyway. This way, your estimate is reduced to 16 token of cost.
Another disadvantage you could have is to replace one of the hexbug layers (probably the second one) in the AS with another hexsand layer, and say it's there for improved cooling. It wouldn't reduce cost at all, but it's certainly a balancing drawback.
I personally try to take the vanilla assaultsuit as base. With battlesuits, we have the situation that I don't think a lot of people will ever buy a regular one, cause several variants offer a so much better deal. Is that what we want? Create a suit, then make variants so the old suit pales in comparison? Some extra power, sure! But not overly much.
*twitch*
Counter-Argument A:Assaultsuits are not strictly superior to battlesuits, because some of them include massive OP guns for cheap; Ergo battlesuits should not removed from the armory, because they have a role and purpose that the AS does not fill, and people would buy it for that. This is your very own logic, last used in the long discussion about the blifle.
Counter-Argument B:I'm going to talk to PW in IRC, and ask him if I can apply battlesuit variants to the assaultsuit. There's nothing you can do to stop me, because the council has no power, neener-neener.
Also, syv, I see you discovered yourlogicalfallacyis.com. Good for you! As a reward, have this: http://existentialcomics.com/comic/9
Hehehe, that's a good one.
I didn't just discover that site, though. I just avoid using it in serious arguments where I'm actually trying to convince someone. I used to use it against GWG back when we had the super mega argument. Ahhh, I miss him...
Because unlike Radio, PW actually is fine with better technology making superior items, so hexbug and hexsand are more effective armor by price.
Pfff, you duns knows what yousa talking about! My opinion I voiced in the council was that Seans' proposal (20 token +no kinamp+no esdf) was reasonable, to me, and might only need a liiittle tweaking (an extra token, a small stat requirement, stuff like that). But, when speaking for the council, I defend the judgement that comes out, out of respect for my fellow councilmen, and because that seems proper (can't do it themselves, they're supposed to stay secret!) Because yes, I do try to put my personal opinion aside when needed. What, you think the council is always in full agreement? I try to make it clear what is my opinion, and what is council opinion, but I'll admit that can get confusing.
Waitwaitwait, are you saying that you're arguing for a position
that you disagree with?! I might have just severely misinterpreted what you said, but that's not how this works! If you already believe that it's wrong, then no amount of discussion on our part will ever make you change your stance, meaning it's all entirely pointless!
Or are the council members who have that opinion standing back and watching, so we might be able to convince them?
I've said it before: in general, I'm very a-ok with new items that do better, per token, than old ones. But just not too much.
Yeeeah, and this is why you want to remove the original OP battlesuit variants because they're too powerful to be standard. Suuuure.
I can't defend our thought processes without quoting every pm (a crapton of work) but if you don't think us capable of decently thinking out an idea, that's sad, but still just your opinion. I can also just say 'all them tinker nuts be thinking poorly' and it still wouldn't change anything, just an ad hominem.
Sorry. I'm still bad at self-control.
I do think that your reasons are flawed. The only truly subjective point that has been made is balance, yet you still have made many statements on cost and such. You've also made the statement that comparisons in cost and balance can't be compared to the orginal BS, which is... frankly, it feels insane to me. It goes against everything that Tinker means.
Did you? Probably. Either way, I didn't think it'd be a problem, but it appears it might become one.
Nah, I didn't mean it to be relevant. I just found it interesting that we apparently switched sides when switching topics. The most relevant it could be would be for me to look up where I used it, and then use your own counter-argument, and even then it would mostly just be funny rather than meaningful.
Why would anyone ever buy a regular battlesuit really?
A: They aren't a CON user.
B: They already have better guns than the integrated ones (PSL...).
C: They value the ESDF and realize that a long-range variant is basically helpless if an enemy gets on its back.
But it seems I, in turn, was taken too serious. My straight opinion: I think some pw armory items aren't completely balanced. I think it is theoretically possible to fix this. If pw asked me to do so, I would be willing to. But I won't ever instigate this myself, because the game isn't completely broken (so no extreme urgency), because it'd be a crapton of work, and bring more pain than benefit overall.
Do you think every item and mechanic is perfectly balanced, syv? If no, do you think it'd be possible to fix (some of) these, either yourself or via community effort? If yes, do you think the game is still playable despite the unbalance, and that it isn't really needed to go through that gargantuan effort for what it would gain? If yes, we think the same.
Welp, that was a real comedy routine. We both seem to agree. The game could be more balanced, but actually trying to go through and rebalance everything would be overly difficult and wasteful for very little gain, and would probably be rendered obselete as tech increases anyway.
Although, I do have to wonder about your suggestion of rebalancing *suits. Perhaps you think that it's only a segment of the overhaul, and one of the more important ones which won't go away with time, so it's worth rebalancing?
Wait, smart people with poor thought processes? And no, there's more than two peeps on the council.
Yeah. I'm smart, but I say idiotic things all the time. Like that insult where I called everyone on the council except you and Hap stupid.
Such confidence in the capabilities of our gm, astounding!
Quite frankly, with tinker-related things, it generally isn't too difficult to talk PW into something, as long as there is a logical line of thought which leads to that result. Probably because he doesn't care that much. :\
My point is that you can't use "X agrees with me" in any meaningful way when X is as impressionable as an
intoxicated puppy apathetic artisan.
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Topic: Hephaestus OOC (Read 168223 times)