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Author Topic: Hephaestus OOC  (Read 164338 times)

Nikitian

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #795 on: March 07, 2015, 06:02:04 pm »

For the record: I am fine with equipping our ships with assistant/backup hardware AI - or even genetically engineered for self-life-support humans or wetware AIs (if the hardware AIs prove too difficult to make). I am actually fine with skipping grossly inefficient designs and approaches in favor of vastly more efficient. I just want that we work out our models and efficiency calculations by asking Piecewise relevant questions as needed, not by second-guessing him and basing the efficiency projections on that. Also maybe factored the vulnerabilities of chosen approaches in the efficiency calculations - which would, hopefully, lead to "increasing" the overall efficiency of chosen approach by employing the least invasive methods to protect those vulnerable points of chosen setup. (I.e. taking steps which would protect the overall efficiency while being least detrimental to it.)

Thus, the list of questions to check with Piecewise's world-building. "Efficiency:"
"...Life-support facilities and supplies vs. QEC facilities and supplies"
"...Ship autonomy vs. QEC security"
"...Hardware AI research and production vs. organic solutions"
"...Distributed distinct AIs network vs. one Steve to rule them all"

... and so on (have I missed anything?)

Edit: Note that I do not say that we should not think, design, create based on what Piecewise gave us; I do not say that we should ask him for every little thing that could be easily been deducted from earlier data. I simply mean that, concerning those topics I listed, there is "insufficient data" at the moment to make careful and correct predictions (and efficiency models). Thus, we should pester (:P) him a bit with various questions before that.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 06:12:51 pm by Nikitian »
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Unholy_Pariah

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #796 on: March 07, 2015, 06:23:40 pm »

Ships need autonomy so that they can function independantly of Steve if the need arises such as when they are in an anomaly, so they remain functional when their QEC stops functioning for whatever reason, and most importantly, so Steve doesnt have to personally control 300 ships and their entire systems as well as process all of their sensor data whilst also babysitting us, locating anomalies, spying on the UWM, planning responses and countermeasures and just generally running the whole goddamn galaxy.

I dont care how many petaflops he has, one computer cannot run an entire galaxy alone.

Best bet would be to use AI controlled ships with an onboard controller capable of reining them in if they go off mission.
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Parisbre56

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #797 on: March 07, 2015, 07:30:17 pm »

I agree that one ring computer cannot rule them all efficiently. That's why we delegate. Even the computers of today delegate to become more efficient. So having a direct Steve/Aresteve connection would probably not work, unless for every ship they control we can also provide the necessary computing power, but at that point we're probably better off creating a new AI for each ship/fleet for security reasons.

Also, we should not regard Hephaestus as invincible. Being sabotaged on Hephaestus or even having Hephaestus being taken over can't mean the end of the rebellion. If a ghost ship comes through the Hephaestus jump point, we can't have that be the end of the rebellion. Sure, it will be a devastating blow, but we can't let that stop us. So we should not base our entire rebellion around the Hephaestus QEC hub. If it does make sense to make all our ships QEC controlled, then we should at least look into ways of protecting our QEC net so that it doesn't have a single point of failure.

I have some ideas that I'd like to research when I get to Hephaestus, the most easy to implement being having each planet under our control be the centre of its own QEC net and having our different QEC nets be as interconnected and with as many redundancies (e.g. connections to backup hubs on different worlds or even in deep space) as possible, but that would probably be expensive and require a more extensive network of supply ships.

On the other hand, I'd also like to research ways to start subverting the UWM QEC net, using it for our gain and finding ways of disabling it. Maybe find a way to get a Stuxnet-like virus into it that causes it to dump all its QEC fuel. It was actually one of the things Flint proposed to Steve very early on, but if I remember correctly Steve said he was already messing with their comms and using them, although his capability to do so might have started to diminish by now.

syvarris

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #798 on: March 07, 2015, 07:59:49 pm »

@Steve not being able to fly everything

I'm not sure, but doesn't he already run a lot of shipping and stuff?  I thought Steve basically already flew a lot of the galaxy's ships.  It's one of the advantages we have.

Anyways, even if Steve can't fly the ships personally, it's simpler to have pilots fly the ships by QEC.  Not only should it take up less volume, but pilots can live in excellent accomodations (for morale), will gain extra experience since they can fly in any sortie that happens, and won't lose that experience if they're shot down.

@Spreading our QEC net hubs around

I agree with this, and it's a good idea whatever route we go with the ships.  We should ask Steve if he gets shipments of QEC fuel, and if so, just send him the fuel for any spaceships that he would need to pilot.

I'm still kinda of the opinion that if we lose Hephaestus, we lose the war... but I'll admit I'm pretty biased there.  IC, they're identical scenarios to Saint.

If it's a big problem, maybe we should go through with that one old suggestion, and actually turn Hephaestus into a giant spaceship and fly it away. :P

Unholy_Pariah

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #799 on: March 07, 2015, 11:37:49 pm »

No, we should build a supermanipulator of biblical proportions that creates an expanding wave of heat around the planet that will vaporise any fleet attempting to enter orbit.

Because we need a last ditch superweapon that will make the eldritch gods nervous.
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Clearly running multiple missions at the same time is a terrible idea.  The epic battle to see which team can cock it up worse has escalated again.

And Larry kinda gets blueballed in all this; just left with a raging bone spear and no where to put it.

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #800 on: March 08, 2015, 12:48:52 am »

@Steve not being able to fly everything

I'm not sure, but doesn't he already run a lot of shipping and stuff?  I thought Steve basically already flew a lot of the galaxy's ships.  It's one of the advantages we have.

Anyways, even if Steve can't fly the ships personally, it's simpler to have pilots fly the ships by QEC.  Not only should it take up less volume, but pilots can live in excellent accomodations (for morale), will gain extra experience since they can fly in any sortie that happens, and won't lose that experience if they're shot down.
They still need to have the option of autonomy - especially if they're flown by normal pilots. It's one thing to be the captain of a ship on the bridge - there's lots of things to do. It yet another thing to remotely fly a simple drone - even if a mission lasts hours, you can probably comfortably sit around for that long. But a typical space patrol mission lasts months, where nothing is happening. It takes a long time to accelerate to jump velocity, a time also not measured in anything less than days. A regular pilot would not be able to sit around for that long.

I agree that having the option of QEC control is good - a setup like the Artemis Bridge Simulator with several people on the ground taking watch over each ship's various vitals, distributing responsibility for a better performance, or even letting Steve tap into the controls, but for the regular, boring, day-to-day stuff, it's far better to have a ship that can take care of itself.

Also, even beyond supernatural means of severing the QEC link to a ship, it still leaves combat damage. If the ship is entirely QEC-controlled, the QEC relay becomes its sole weakpoint, more vital than its main weapon or its powerplant. Do recall how the diplomatic mission beheaded that military base. With the QEC relay and an onboard intelligence both being present, there is no single point of failure. A ship with an onboard intelligence can receive relayed commands via simple radio link from any other ships in the fleet, just interpreting orders and acting as it is trained to do, without the need for direct control.

Also do recall, the QEC is not a radio net, or a telephone net. A quantum entanglement communicator is two devices paired together. Ships are going to need a whole array of quantum comms each, to be controllable both by us, by Steve, and by whatever local force we're sending them to.
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Devastator

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #801 on: March 08, 2015, 01:17:02 am »

"An area-effect that prevents quantum fluctuations in a given area."

Yeah, that's absurd, everything that exists is a quantum fluctuation.  This field would utterly destroy everything.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #802 on: March 08, 2015, 01:21:54 am »

"An area-effect that prevents quantum fluctuations in a given area."

Yeah, that's absurd, everything that exists is a quantum fluctuation.  This field would utterly destroy everything.
If the field that maintains temperature doesn't do it by forcing all molecules to stop and setting the temperature of everything to absolute zero, then a field that prevents quantum entanglement effects can do it without literally stopping all fluctuations. It's just a different level of preventing energy from being added to a system.
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Multiworld Madness Archive:
Game One, Discontinued at World 3.
Game Two, Discontinued at World 1.

"Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not Europe's problems."
- Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs, India

Xantalos

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #803 on: March 08, 2015, 02:13:36 am »

"An area-effect that prevents quantum fluctuations in a given area."

Yeah, that's absurd, everything that exists is a quantum fluctuation.  This field would utterly destroy everything.
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #804 on: March 08, 2015, 06:47:50 am »

Quote
I'm not really sure what to do here.  Should I act like we're still using the old administration, despite Pyro being AWOL?  Or should I act under the new administration method, under which Nik should technically have authority?

In any case, Miya doesn't leave much room for decision making; Most of what he wrote reads like an executive order.  Beyond saying that I'll try to comply, and that such a detection method would probably be very difficult to create, there's not much to say.  Maybe I could joke about his authorization code being incorrect; it needs a dash rather than an underscore?

I'd do it as if the reforms are in effect already, seems easier than waiting and allows for some rp.

Well, you guys could discuss what you saw (I don't think they knew most of this already?), how to go about that detection method and if you think Miya's orders make sense. I tried to give a little leeway for rp'ing, since you guys can't really do anything else right now. Either way, it'd be nice if you could announce whether you follow through with what he asked, because if yes I'll see if I can get a concession from pw and pretend Xan is already on board the Sword, so that Xantalos isn't forced into not being able to play again for weeks. Even if we end up killing him, then at least he'll be able to respawn and actually continue playing (I don't like forcing other players into inactivity, even though it's the logical thing to do from IC standpoint).


@ships: well, we could do what (Paris?) said: for each fleet of decent size (so not for a lone scout somewhere) you add 1 cloaked ship carrying humans/wetware who can take over in case of trouble. They'd have their own QEC to Steve, but in case Steve can't remote pilot for whatever reason (he's distracted elsewhere, QEC jammers, QEC array damaged on some of the ships) they can take over. Since each ship would probably still have basic computers to calculate menial things (eg. burn times) they should be able to still control a fleet with decent efficiency.
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Parisbre56

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #805 on: March 08, 2015, 09:17:49 am »

I just thought of another problem of having ships be very far away, although I'm not sure if piecewise will ever bother with that. Depending on gravity and relative velocity, time dilation may make things harder to control in real time. It's one thing using a QEC to transmit simple messages like general move/attack orders and news reports and it's another thing to control something fully in real time through it. Because if the time difference is big enough then the system might not be capable of synchronizing properly for real time control (if there is a max transmit rate) or the controller (whether human or AI) might not be able to respond to the data quickly enough.

syvarris

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #806 on: March 08, 2015, 02:40:22 pm »

Quote from: Sean
They still need to have the option of autonomy - especially if they're flown by normal pilots. It's one thing to be the captain of a ship on the bridge - there's lots of things to do. It yet another thing to remotely fly a simple drone - even if a mission lasts hours, you can probably comfortably sit around for that long. But a typical space patrol mission lasts months, where nothing is happening. It takes a long time to accelerate to jump velocity, a time also not measured in anything less than days. A regular pilot would not be able to sit around for that long.

Perhaps I was unclear?  I didn't mean every ship should be completely stripped of all autonomy.  I meant that they should be stripped of all living control methods.  Having a computer that can fly the ship where it needs to go, and probably aim the weapons, seems like a good idea.  This is really another reason to have QEC pilots; If you had pilots in the ship, they'd have way too much downtime, and can't go do something else (unless you have bulky VR machines for them).

I do think that ships should have a limited AI, much like inorganic arbiters.  Nik convinced me of that much.  I just don't think the AI should be an expensive wetware or human pilot.  It should be able to take care of all small, day-to-day problems, and alert a human pilot if anything comes up.


Quote from: Sean
Also, even beyond supernatural means of severing the QEC link to a ship, it still leaves combat damage. If the ship is entirely QEC-controlled, the QEC relay becomes its sole weakpoint, more vital than its main weapon or its powerplant. Do recall how the diplomatic mission beheaded that military base. With the QEC relay and an onboard intelligence both being present, there is no single point of failure. A ship with an onboard intelligence can receive relayed commands via simple radio link from any other ships in the fleet, just interpreting orders and acting as it is trained to do, without the need for direct control.

If you have both a QEC control infrastructure, AND an organic on-board controller, you get the worst of both worlds.  It's very inefficient to supply the ship enough that you always use the QEC for important piloting, because you have the burn the organic's supplies as well.  If you only use the QEC pilot in emergencies, the ship is less effective because it has a less skilled and experienced pilot.  Not to mention, either way you have all the space taking junk for the organic still around.

Wouldn't it be simpler just to use two QECs, and split the fuel supply between them?

Quote from: Sean
Also do recall, the QEC is not a radio net, or a telephone net. A quantum entanglement communicator is two devices paired together. Ships are going to need a whole array of quantum comms each, to be controllable both by us, by Steve, and by whatever local force we're sending them to.

It's foolish to add all the different connections to a single ship.  You should just add a connection to whichever particular hub will need to control it most often, like Hephaestus, and if you need some other hub to control it, like Steve, he can just relay his orders through Hephaestus.  That way, you save on ship space.  It's also more efficient, because to take a maximum length voyage, a ship with connections to everyone would need to take commands from everyone at some point.

Also, I thought allied planets were going to physically crew their own ships?  If they use QEC-controlled ones, I suggest we route their commands through our own bases anyway, just so that they can't betray us.  We don't need to tell them that that's what we're doing.

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@ships: well, we could do what (Paris?) said: for each fleet of decent size (so not for a lone scout somewhere) you add 1 cloaked ship carrying humans/wetware who can take over in case of trouble. They'd have their own QEC to Steve, but in case Steve can't remote pilot for whatever reason (he's distracted elsewhere, QEC jammers, QEC array damaged on some of the ships) they can take over. Since each ship would probably still have basic computers to calculate menial things (eg. burn times) they should be able to still control a fleet with decent efficiency.

Yeah, Paris was the one who said that.  I actually searched for the statement, to see if I'd already responded to it, but apparently I didn't because it was one lone sentence.

First issue I have with this is that it's a ship controlling other ships via Radio.  Not only would that involve lag, it's probably quite possible to reverse engineer.  Also, it would make the stealth ship very easy to detect.

Second issue I have with it is: why must we have a specialty ship with organics for this?  You could just have nearby ships radio commands to it, recieved via their own QECs.  That would allow for more redundancy, more ships to be controlled, and probably less lag (since the nearest ship would be the one controlling the wounded ship).  Also, Steve being distracted isn't an issue, because we could just train pilots who sit on Hephaestus and pilot ships via QEC.

The only role for this is commanding ships that've been affected by a QEC jammer.  I think it would be a good idea to build a few such ships, just in case, but not send them out with every fleet.  If something fishy happens, we can start sending the specialty ships to check it out.


Quote from: Paris
I just thought of another problem of having ships be very far away, although I'm not sure if piecewise will ever bother with that. Depending on gravity and relative velocity, time dilation may make things harder to control in real time. It's one thing using a QEC to transmit simple messages like general move/attack orders and news reports and it's another thing to control something fully in real time through it. Because if the time difference is big enough then the system might not be capable of synchronizing properly for real time control (if there is a max transmit rate) or the controller (whether human or AI) might not be able to respond to the data quickly enough.

This is... huh.  Interesting idea.  Could be a problem, I guess, so it should be asked of PW with the other questions.

Parisbre56

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #807 on: March 08, 2015, 05:01:40 pm »

About the command ship being visible: You could always have the command ship communicate with the others with something like a laser located close to the ship's main engines. If that part of the ship is damaged, another ship could relay it via either laser comms located somewhere else or via normal radio. In fact, even if it turns out that a stealthed command/relay ship is not needed, we should probably give our ships laser comms as primary short range comms to deny the enemy any opportunity of using them.

Devastator

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #808 on: March 08, 2015, 05:54:19 pm »

Perhaps I was unclear?  I didn't mean every ship should be completely stripped of all autonomy.  I meant that they should be stripped of all living control methods.

As absurd as I think a QEC jammer is, (I can't think of anything that would mess with the basic properties of electrons that wouldn't utterly destroy everything).. Why is 'stripping ships of living control methods' a design goal?  Saying oh it'll be too heavy or too expensive is pretty ridiculous given the setting, especially with the existance of things like robobodies.

It's like you're saying that you don't need both automatic and manual rudder control on a warship.  You're talking about the single most important function, the one thing that must work for anything else to matter, and saying that goal one is to handicap it's capabilities.  It's the one thing that is, most definately, worth the expenditure to ensure it's functionality.
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Unholy_Pariah

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Re: Hephaestus OOC
« Reply #809 on: March 08, 2015, 08:40:10 pm »

Dear god guys it's not that hard.

We fuck off shipwide life support, give it a dedicated controller AI to control the ships functions and a non aging pilot who is kept alive and integrated into the ships systems that can guide the ship via nueral interface.

Think farscape with pilot and moiya.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 09:12:25 pm by Unholy_Pariah »
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Clearly running multiple missions at the same time is a terrible idea.  The epic battle to see which team can cock it up worse has escalated again.

And Larry kinda gets blueballed in all this; just left with a raging bone spear and no where to put it.
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