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[Comrade P.]

Don't the needs of many outweigh the needs of the few at all times, not just sometimes?

[Sean Mirrsen]

No, just sometimes. Because the UWM are more many than we are.

[Radio Controlled]

Don't the needs of many outweigh the needs of the few at all times, not just sometimes?

Not neccesarily. If the needs of the many consists of getting a fifth gold statue of themselves for adding to their back yard, while the needs of the few consist of not getting worked to death to make this shiney splendor a reality, then I'd say the needs of the few here have claim on being heavier.

[syvarris]

@Nik

As head of expansion, and therefore the controller of our fleshpits and biochemical forges... No, unless whatever you propose won't slow production or reduce effectiveness.

I'd like to discuss it IC anyway, because I think a conversation between Saint and Maurice would be fun.\

@Radio

But what if the happiness increass from that gold statue, spread over many billions of people, is a net happiness gain compared to the loss from the few who are worked to death? 

[Parisbre56]

No, just sometimes. Because the UWM are more many than we are.

Yes, but we are supposed to be the good guys that will end up saving humanity (by killing the people that once saved humanity). So our holy war is just.

And you can consider sods being machines, animals, something less than human.

Or any other justification you can come up with, like the pure egoistical "Our lives matter the most."

That being said, I do not think one can apply contemporary morals to science fiction environments, especially ones that involve multiple planetary systems. As long as societies evolve and branch off, their morals change. Things that would have been unthinkably wrong 500 years ago are being done on a daily basis today and vice versa. So as societies evolve and change, their morals are more likely to change to accommodate the environment they live in, merely by virtue of evolution. In order to survive they are going to have to accept the things that make them survive.

[Hapah]

@Radio

But what if the happiness increass from that gold statue, spread over many billions of people, is a net happiness gain compared to the loss from the few who are worked to death? 

Felix happens.

[Comrade P.]

So are we now forging moral background to our crusade against UWM?

[Nikitian]

Don't the needs of many outweigh the needs of the few at all times, not just sometimes?

Not neccesarily. If the needs of the many consists of getting a fifth gold statue of themselves for adding to their back yard, while the needs of the few consist of not getting worked to death to make this shiney splendor a reality, then I'd say the needs of the few here have claim on being heavier.

And then I'd say we have sods do exactly that for us the rebels. It's not like living under the rule of UWM would mean we'd die as the fifth gold statue is confiscated for the good of the state!

Are you trying to bring... what do westerners call them... tolerance and compassion into the grim darkness of far future?

Oh, no! I just have this little thing "conscience" that I have to put to sleep before I can really start to work on the truly important projects. A nasty child, always complains about something trivial. The top brass also seem to have them, so it's for the good of all, right?

@Nik
As head of expansion, and therefore the controller of our fleshpits and biochemical forges... No, unless whatever you propose won't slow production or reduce effectiveness.

I'd like to discuss it IC anyway, because I think a conversation between Saint and Maurice would be fun.\

Sure, why not.  I am not here to question or interfere, though; I simply want to understand.


So, in general - yes, I just want to know the ethical reason why we do that, so I can work and rp with it. Reconsidering the ethics and maybe changing our approaches is the next step (that can be done here as well, sure, but no sooner than the first one is complete).

[Radio Controlled]

It's easy really. They're idiots and they'll lead us to ruin. We prevent this, rolling over the occasional planet's worth of innocent civilians to save more in the long run. Moral calculus checks out, easy peasy.


Of course, if you know a better way to achieve the same (cheap but effective footsoldiers) not needing semi-sapient human soldiers, I'm all ears.

[Nikitian]

Well, that is perfectly valid and understandable.

The question I have is - how do we justify exploiting the sods? They have nothing to do with out particular interest in "saving the galaxy" and "making things better in the long run".

Correction in response to RC's edit: How do we justify "doing that to them", not just "doing that as a valid method"? (Even though they likely cannot fathom what exactly we're doing to them, of course.)

[AoshimaMichio]

Well, that is perfectly valid and understandable.

The question I have is - how do we justify exploiting the sods? They have nothing to do with out particular interest in "saving the galaxy" and "making things better in the long run".

Correction in response to RC's edit: How do we justify "doing that to them", not just "doing that as a valid method"? (Even though they likely cannot fathom what exactly we're doing to them, of course.)

Fight fire with fire. Because your opponent uses them too.

[Radio Controlled]

Let us quantify the creation and exploitation of sods as giving X negative karma/moral kudos/whatever (for ease, let X also include the various other atrocities we'll need to commit). Saving the galaxy and all its (present and future) inhabitants gives Y positive karma. If X<Y, problem solved, in terms of global morality.

But of course, that will hardly help us sleep at night, not will it scrub our conscience clean. But then again, nobody said it'd be an easy job.

Again, if you can find a way to gain the same utility for resisting the UWM with lower karma cost, I'm very interested to hear it (hell, if sharkmist robots pan out, those might replace our sod needs).

[Toaster]

Do pre-ARM atrocities count against us?  What about atrocities against non-humans?  (M1 comes to mind for the latter.)

[Radio Controlled]

Do pre-ARM atrocities count against us?  What about atrocities against non-humans?  (M1 comes to mind for the latter.)

I'm pretty sure simply changing the acronym you work under absolves you of any responsabilities and moral quanderies. It's like a magic charm.

That's why, if Miya ever needs to kick a schoolbus full of puppies, he'll change his name to 'Gonzales' to clean his conscious.

[Toaster]

So what's going to be our new acronym after we blow up half of Q'baja?