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[Nikitian]

Why, sure, that is just as reasonable and explains (and gives way for) a lot.
Thank you for solving the issue for today!

[Comrade P.]

You can dispose of the moral issues caused by using and killing sods and other biorobots in front of populace by blaming the cruel exploitation on one particular person and disposing of that person later. Impose a sod commander unit as a sentient person and execute him for his war crimes later. So you can question yourself further but your rule won't be undermined.

Also we should start thinking about puppet governments we will establish on planets we take from UWM in order to exploit their resources until the end of war.

[Toaster]

We're actually looking at the question from the wrong angle; what does the average citizen person think of a Sod?  I assume the among the more "modernized" worlds the average citizen knows what they are, so they must have an opinion.  Further, other "variant" humans used to be used extensively before the Altered Wars; what of them?  As far as I know, the Sods are the only ones still used.

Sounds like a question Charles should ask.

[Xantalos]

Or you could just use Xan's various monsters he could spawn and avoid the issue altogether ^{albiet by replacing it with one that's worse}

[Radio Controlled]

((Useful note for Radio: Wikipedia say the human body is about 18.5% carbon by mass.  So, with perfect efficiency, an 80kg human would yield 14.8 kg of carbon.  Rounding up, you need six people to make one carbon bot.

Why not use all that spare oxygen and hydrogen as a power source?  It's not like you're using it already.  Also, why are you asking about carbon from people?  Why not carbon from the environment?))

Thanks, but I figured that since the conversion isn't perfect, it could need more peeps than that, and the spare oxygen and hydrogen are mostly bound to other molecules (often carbon indeed) so I don't know how much energy we can get out of a human if we also need him as building material. We'll need energy for conversion, but also continued functioning. I'm also not sure if sharkmist is entirely 100% carbon (it's mostly carbon, I think, but no idea on actual percentages), and for the sake of not asking pw to do to much math, I'm asking him for a ballpark measure.

And I'm using people because I was joking around earlier with zombie robot apocalypse, so decided to use that further. We can't use carbon gasses, so we'd need a concentrated source of it anyway  and hapless schmucks seemed like a good place to start (when using it in the field, that is, for Hep producing other methods are of course better).

[Sean Mirrsen]

Okay, so with the current progress on the Piercing Energy Weapons, it seems we can basically start producing relatively simple implementations as-is.

What I'm wondering, is this. Is it better to have the Battlesuit version rely solely on coldplates, or have it use the cooling system? Coldplates aren't likely to slow a battlesuit down much, and the weapon is still basically a HEP. How often would a compressed shot be needed during a typical mission? More than some five times?

I'm suspecting the coldplates solution is going to be cheaper to start with, but the cooling system reloads aren't going to be nearly as frequent (and would basically be handwaved away on non-excruciatingly-long missions). No running costs versus lower entry cost, what is better?


Also, for the military commanders of the ARM - what would your tactical assessment of the man-portable weapon be? It's a heavy weapon, basically if a trooper is carrying it - and he needs to be in an exoskeleton - he's likely not carrying any other gear, and his ammo is limited. On the other hand, the weapon OHKOs a battlesuit with minimal collateral (i.e. whatever was standing behind it) on a decent shot, utterly obliterates anything less than that, and works well into the Long range margin, getting dispersed at the low edge of Extreme if the range increase with compression works as I think it does. Not sure what it'd cost in tokens, but at the bare minimum as much as a HEP (it has extra functions, but is far larger and heavier), plus the plates are unlikely to be dirt cheap. Would it fill a specific niche than an existing weapon can't, and would that niche be useful, what do you think?

[Nikitian]

Well, it's certainly more expensive than Cutting Laser, and it has a somewhat smaller range of application (due to one-shot-per-minute restriction - unless we power up the generator, which means even greater cost), but it is nearly as or perhaps better at destroying battlesuits than PSL, and is possibly even better at infantry suppression.

The way I see it, at the moment it is the weapon that would benefit most from being a battlesuit-integrated armament. If the earlier-suggested "routing of heat through armor" is possible, it can be done with our new-model battlesuits as well; and it would certainly benefit from a large integrated power source - protected by layers upon layers of armor rather than carried as a backpack or something, providing a critical vulnerability point for disarming the battlesuit.

Infantry-portable version might be moderately useful as well, though, but it should probably remain bare-bones. And whether it means cold-plates or cooling system rests mostly on how heavy each of those variants would be. If practically the same, then - whichever is cheaper, I guess? Despite hating the UWM approach to powering everything by non-rechargeable batteries, I would probably agree that we don't so much expect a trooper to survive so long that lower running costs would outweigh production cost - and we'll want to have as many powerful weapons as possible. Then again, if the negligible price difference was hand-waved in the long run (as far as industrial manufacturing goes), it might be better just to stick with the cooling system.

I wonder though, might it perhaps be possible to cool the coldplates again, say, between engagements/missions? If yes, they might actually be cheaper in the long run as well.

[Toaster]

Would chucking the coldplates in a lake or something cool them off faster?  I'd imagine that the typical mission would have some form of faster cooling available to the enterprising soldier.

[Radio Controlled]

@ sean: are you speaking for Sword missions, or background sods/npc forces?

I'll assume the first for the analysis: I don't think the compressed shot will be needed on most missions to justify making the coolant version standard on the infantry one. I'd go with coldplates (ammo, in other words) but let one have the option to switch to coolant system for extra money (on purchase or later on). Basically, make it as cheap as possible, but with an extra expensive option for those who really, really want it (like how one can replace the laser rifle's battery with a generator for extra cost, even though almost nobody ever shot his rifle enough to justify that investment).

Also, for the military commanders of the ARM - what would your tactical assessment of the man-portable weapon be? It's a heavy weapon, basically if a trooper is carrying it - and he needs to be in an exoskeleton - he's likely not carrying any other gear, and his ammo is limited. On the other hand, the weapon OHKOs a battlesuit with minimal collateral (i.e. whatever was standing behind it) on a decent shot, utterly obliterates anything less than that, and works well into the Long range margin, getting dispersed at the low edge of Extreme if the range increase with compression works as I think it does. Not sure what it'd cost in tokens, but at the bare minimum as much as a HEP (it has extra functions, but is far larger and heavier), plus the plates are unlikely to be dirt cheap. Would it fill a specific niche than an existing weapon can't, and would that niche be useful, what do you think?

Is there any way to decrease the weight/bulkyness? I mean, heavy infantry weapons are a thing, but even those still need to ensure their wearer doesn't become a slightly mobile gun turret, when in an exoskeleton even a gauss cannon/PSL don't hamper their user in the way I'm picturing this thing would (based on your description). If not, then I think it'd make more sense as either a vehicle weapon or a focused long-range one (a lesho for example can be heavy because mobility doesn't matter as much at the range it usually operates). We might not have one-shot battlesuit kill infantry weapons (aside from spess mahic), but we do have some that can very much put the hurt on it/disable it, and that often seems to be enough. I mean, a regular HEP shot can knock it back and ablate a layer of armor, and should be capable of destroying any weapons it has on it, and a psl as well can do good damage (and has enough ammo and fire rate to also be usable against infantry).

Basically, contrary to what is often touted, we don't need massive overkill on most missions, and what we have (and is lighter, and perhaps cheaper) mostly fills the roles this thing could do. It does, however, sound like a good idea if really heavy targets could come up, like an AoW, but that hardly justifies lugging this thing around all the time otherwise. Say you just use a regular Hep shot with this thing. After this, you are left with a useless block for a minute, but it still weighs you down heavily, and said weight prevented you from taking a lot of other stuff with you. You're a sitting duck.

Finally, I wonder if, for infantry stuff, it doesn't make more sense to go for regular lasers powered by shards. I mean, a gauss rifle sized one-time laser has the power to

4.So propane tank sized shard strapped to a rifle. One shot with something like that is probably good enough to go straight through a battlesuit. The gun is gonna melt to molten slag in the process though.

And if we that to a cutting laser, I think we can get that kind of destructive power but still reusable. It might (might) not be as versatile, and it needs ammo, but unless you are facing a neverending onslaught of battlesuits, I think something like this might be more practical. Thought that depends of course on cost, which I don't know yet.


Once we consider use for a battlesuit or vehicle though, this thing might become more viable I'd think (since, as Nik mentioned, we could use the entire body to radiate heat, and those can carry more bulk while staying mobile). There is still the big problem of downtime though, and a minute per shot might be long enough to make the whole thing useless anyway. Have you asked if reload time could be deceased?

[Sean Mirrsen]

The way I see it, at the moment it is the weapon that would benefit most from being a battlesuit-integrated armament. If the earlier-suggested "routing of heat through armor" is possible, it can be done with our new-model battlesuits as well; and it would certainly benefit from a large integrated power source - protected by layers upon layers of armor rather than carried as a backpack or something, providing a critical vulnerability point for disarming the battlesuit.

Integration into a battlesuit is something I considered, but it will basically mean that the whole suit is going to be "built around the gun", like the Hollander (though for a different reason). It'd be impossible to make it a snap-on/snap-off thing, the cooling system would permeate the whole machine, and damage to any part would potentially lengthen the cooling time. A potentially cool (heh) thing to do could be integrating a PEW on each arm of the suit - since both charge simultaneously, and the cooling system is not practically limited to the same one-minute recharge time, you could theoretically be able to squeeze off two shots per minute, and have some reserve cooling power to keep at least one shot per minute if the suit loses a limb or three.

Infantry-portable version might be moderately useful as well, though, but it should probably remain bare-bones. And whether it means cold-plates or cooling system rests mostly on how heavy each of those variants would be. If practically the same, then - whichever is cheaper, I guess? Despite hating the UWM approach to powering everything by non-rechargeable batteries, I would probably agree that we don't so much expect a trooper to survive so long that lower running costs would outweigh production cost - and we'll want to have as many powerful weapons as possible. Then again, if the negligible price difference was hand-waved in the long run (as far as industrial manufacturing goes), it might be better just to stick with the cooling system.

The infantry version can't have the cooling system, lest the wielder is limited to crawling around. The weapon, as it is now, is pretty heavy. Adding a massive cooling system would be literally too much to bear.

I wonder though, might it perhaps be possible to cool the coldplates again, say, between engagements/missions? If yes, they might actually be cheaper in the long run as well.

Would chucking the coldplates in a lake or something cool them off faster?  I'd imagine that the typical mission would have some form of faster cooling available to the enterprising soldier.

I'm sort of imagining that the coldplates aren't just dense plates at slightly below room temperature. Considering they need to keep the device at near absolute zero, I'm assuming they're either super-cooled and super-insulated, or use some sort of extremely endothermic chemical reaction. So while tossing them into a lake would stop them from being hot, it wouldn't make them cold enough. But being reusable between missions is definitely possible - in fact it's possible to re-cool them rapidly enough to make a viable defense emplacement that auto-reloads and auto-reuses the coldplates of several chain-firing PEWs, even though it'd be pretty large.

@ sean: are you speaking for Sword missions, or background sods/npc forces?

Both I guess, but just the Sword-mission perspective is good too.

I'll assume the first for the analysis: I don't think the compressed shot will be needed on most missions to justify making the coolant version standard on the infantry one. I'd go with coldplates (ammo, in other words) but let one have the option to switch to coolant system for extra money (on purchase or later on). Basically, make it as cheap as possible, but with an extra expensive option for those who really, really want it (like how one can replace the laser rifle's battery with a generator for extra cost, even though almost nobody ever shot his rifle enough to justify that investment).

I was asking about the Battlesuit version, but that answers the question too, I guess. Coldplates it is then.

Is there any way to decrease the weight/bulkyness? I mean, heavy infantry weapons are a thing, but even those still need to ensure their wearer doesn't become a slightly mobile gun turret, when in an exoskeleton even a gauss cannon/PSL don't hamper their user in the way I'm picturing this thing would (based on your description).

Theoretically yes, by stripping the weapon of various parts or using an automanip to keep it cold, but it will require research.

If not, then I think it'd make more sense as either a vehicle weapon or a focused long-range one (a lesho for example can be heavy because mobility doesn't matter as much at the range it usually operates).

A battlesuit or a tank/gunship would do pretty well with it, yeah. Also, it fires anywhere between eight and sixteen times as far as a regular HEP while retaining the armor-penetration capability, so it can work as a semi-mobile sniper-ish weapon as well.
 

We might not have one-shot battlesuit kill infantry weapons (aside from spess mahic), but we do have some that can very much put the hurt on it/disable it, and that often seems to be enough. I mean, a regular HEP shot can knock it back and ablate a layer of armor, and should be capable of destroying any weapons it has on it, and a psl as well can do good damage (and has enough ammo and fire rate to also be usable against infantry).

Basically, contrary to what is often touted, we don't need massive overkill on most missions, and what we have (and is lighter, and perhaps cheaper) mostly fills the roles this thing could do.

Mmhmm. Yeah, the LESHO does pretty much the same thing, just with kinetics (though much more accurately and expensively, and/or explosively).

It does, however, sound like a good idea if really heavy targets could come up, like an AoW, but that hardly justifies lugging this thing around all the time otherwise. Say you just use a regular Hep shot with this thing. After this, you are left with a useless block for a minute, but it still weighs you down heavily, and said weight prevented you from taking a lot of other stuff with you. You're a sitting duck.

Yeah, that's a problem. A Battlesuit could theoretically have two mounted, one per arm, and would still be able to use regular weapons, but a regular trooper will be out of luck. That was something I wanted to address, but it seems it won't be that simple.

Finally, I wonder if, for infantry stuff, it doesn't make more sense to go for regular lasers powered by shards. I mean, a gauss rifle sized one-time laser has the power to

4.So propane tank sized shard strapped to a rifle. One shot with something like that is probably good enough to go straight through a battlesuit. The gun is gonna melt to molten slag in the process though.

And if we that to a cutting laser, I think we can get that kind of destructive power but still reusable. It might (might) not be as versatile, and it needs ammo, but unless you are facing a neverending onslaught of battlesuits, I think something like this might be more practical. Thought that depends of course on cost, which I don't know yet.

The weapon itself won't be too expensive I'd guess, it's absolutely single-use so it wouldn't make sense to make it expensive. The power cell would cost a pretty penny though, and the requisite shielding for a shard of that size would make it rather heavy. A reusable version would be heavier still, since it'd need to deal with heat the same way the PEW does. I could see it being more practical if you need to limit collateral damage though - i.e. if you crit-hit a battlesuit's pilot with the laser, you just kill the pilot, whereas the PEW will take out the whole cockpit, and likely scatter what little remains of the suit's torso to the four winds. It's really a MASSIVE DAMAGE weapon.

Once we consider use for a battlesuit or vehicle though, this thing might become more viable I'd think (since, as Nik mentioned, we could use the entire body to radiate heat, and those can carry more bulk while staying mobile). There is still the big problem of downtime though, and a minute per shot might be long enough to make the whole thing useless anyway. Have you asked if reload time could be deceased?

Yeah, I wanted to see if bluerad cells could be combined with coldplates to reload as one unit, basically allowing you to fire as fast as you can reload. Turns out you can't just up and power the HEP with a bluerad cell, but whether the HEP can be recreated in a way that allows to do so is... unknown. Which I take to mean that it's a job for some good old sciencing.

[Parisbre56]

I'd go with coldplates (ammo, in other words) but let one have the option to switch to coolant system for extra money (on purchase or later on). Basically, make it as cheap as possible, but with an extra expensive option for those who really, really want it (like how one can replace the laser rifle's battery with a generator for extra cost, even though almost nobody ever shot his rifle enough to justify that investment).

Why not make the upgrade be hexsand plates, since it can just eat heat?

Anyway, if it is as cheap or cheaper than the LESHO or any reusable number 4 you research, then it's a good energy based sniper to complement our LESHO.

After all, if the enemy manages to copy our armour approach, then we are going to need two soldiers working together to take down a heavy target. Perhaps we should begin training our Anti-armour sods in pairs (and give the some games with layered boss fights to play). Or we could start using special ammo like grav-shells (since eve nuclear would probably not penetrate more than 2 layers), although that sounds expensive, since it would need a lot of souls.

Integration into a battlesuit is something I considered, but it will basically mean that the whole suit is going to be "built around the gun", like the Hollander (though for a different reason). It'd be impossible to make it a snap-on/snap-off thing, the cooling system would permeate the whole machine, and damage to any part would potentially lengthen the cooling time. A potentially cool (heh) thing to do could be integrating a PEW on each arm of the suit - since both charge simultaneously, and the cooling system is not practically limited to the same one-minute recharge time, you could theoretically be able to squeeze off two shots per minute, and have some reserve cooling power to keep at least one shot per minute if the suit loses a limb or three.

Again, the armour of the suit contains hexsand. Hexsand eats heat. Just route the coolant through it.

Irrelevant: Hexsand eats energy. Hexbug can withstand incredible pressure. So...
1. Create a large ball of hexsand-covered hexbug.
2. Throw it into the enemy solar system's sun.
3. Wait for the ball to reach the core.
4. ???
5. Profit!

[Comrade P.]

I'd like to say I'm slightly disturbed by absence of any sort of machine guns in our armory. Aren't those vital for dealing with infantry? Because we aren't fighting exclusively battelsuits and spehs magic creatures, there will be thousands upon thousands of regular sod soldiers, who are light infantry.

I might get things wrong, though.

[Harry Baldman]

I'd like to say I'm slightly disturbed by absence of any sort of machine guns in our armory. Aren't those vital for dealing with infantry? Because we aren't fighting exclusively battelsuits and spehs magic creatures, there will be thousands upon thousands of regular sod soldiers, who are light infantry.

I might get things wrong, though.

There's the Rocket Rifle. And its improved version the Sibilus, which as far as I understand is a Gauss Rifle + Rocket Rifle.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I'd like to say I'm slightly disturbed by absence of any sort of machine guns in our armory. Aren't those vital for dealing with infantry? Because we aren't fighting exclusively battelsuits and spehs magic creatures, there will be thousands upon thousands of regular sod soldiers, who are light infantry.

I might get things wrong, though.

We don't have machineguns because we have lasers. Especially cutting lasers. And now we have the Raduga FELs too. Machineguns are good for suppression. Continuous-beam lasers are good for ensuring that anyone who pops their head up to see what's going on will get it lopped off.

[Comrade P.]

I'd like to say I'm slightly disturbed by absence of any sort of machine guns in our armory. Aren't those vital for dealing with infantry? Because we aren't fighting exclusively battelsuits and spehs magic creatures, there will be thousands upon thousands of regular sod soldiers, who are light infantry.
I might get things wrong, though.

We don't have machineguns because we have lasers. Especially cutting lasers. And now we have the Raduga FELs too. Machineguns are good for suppression. Continuous-beam lasers are good for ensuring that anyone who pops their head up to see what's going on will get it lopped off.

I see now. Thanks.