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Petro Poroshenko

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Total Members Voted: 17

[Sergarr]

Being a sovereign country doesn't exclude you from the consequences of your decisions.

[mainiac]

Except, when it comes to US they probably do. Its not a secret, that US is acting in ukraine, from sending/heaving CIA agents to military advisers and probably weapons (but it's more from near nato countries than US directly)

Way to completely miss my point...

[miljan]

I will tell you a secret. Ukraine is a sovereign country and can invite any advisors, intelligence officers or even armed forces

I will tell you a thing that is not a secret.
Sovereign country doesnt mean a lot in today's time and age (or better said, it never meant anything actually). You will see sovereign country getting invaded, destroyed, separated and a lot of things, from west to east. You will see countries acting only depending from their interest and do not care about some law, UN or something else. That's how it always was, and always will be (until aliens attack us  )

[Helgoland]

Being a sovereign country doesn't exclude you from the consequences of your decisions.

Permissible actions are now a valid reason for an invasion? Maybe you should revise your definition of sovereignity - it does not appear to be in line with the usual one.

Except, when it comes to US they probably do. Its not a secret, that US is acting in ukraine, from sending/heaving CIA agents to military advisers and probably weapons (but it's more from near nato countries than US directly)

And that's why I now believe that the 'crazy stalker ex' description is sorta accurate. USA \neq NATO \neq various European countries! It takes a big (and rather unhealthy) US fixation to see them behind everything any ally does.


Ninjaedit: If you're throwing sovereignity out the window you're retroactively justifying the Iraq war, NATO's Balkan campaign, any possible Western involvement in the color revolutions... If you throw out sovereignity without offering anything to replace it you advocate a return to might makes right. And a waning middle power can only lose at that game when playing against the whole developed world.

[Sergarr]

From my position, we've already lost the game played by Western rules, since the Western military forces have shown their position of double-standards.

The only potential winning move is to break the rules to leverage the playing field.

[miljan]

Except, when it comes to US they probably do. Its not a secret, that US is acting in ukraine, from sending/heaving CIA agents to military advisers and probably weapons (but it's more from near nato countries than US directly)

And that's why I now believe that the 'crazy stalker ex' description is sorta accurate. USA \neq NATO \neq various European countries! It takes a big (and rather unhealthy) US fixation to see them behind everything any ally does.

The thing is, US would/is probably  doing exactly that. Through  nato neighbours to UK. What do you think, they will send their support directly from USA to UK? No, there is no need for that. They just need to pay for their nato alies to help arm UK. There is no need for some logistic expense, when you have nato next to them.

Ninjaedit: If you're throwing sovereignity out the window you're retroactively justifying the Iraq war, NATO's Balkan campaign, any possible Western involvement in the color revolutions... If you throw out sovereignity without offering anything to replace it you advocate a return to might makes right. And a waning middle power can only lose at that game when playing against the whole developed world.

Throwing ? No. I am just saying how things are, because of things you just posted here. Not saying how thing should be or how they should be replaced, just how the thing are. When it comes to big powers, there is no sovereignty, there is only interest.

EDIT: Also, let me say, the thing russia is doing is wrong, I am not saying because  US/west did shit, it means russia can do it. No, russia is now as crap as west (or better said it always was like that).

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I will tell you a secret. Ukraine is a sovereign country and can invite any advisors, intelligence officers or even armed forces

I will tell you a thing that is not a secret.
Sovereign country doesnt mean a lot in today's time and age (or better said, it never meant anything actually). You will see sovereign country getting invaded, destroyed, separated and a lot of things, from west to east. You will see countries acting only depending from their interest and do not care about some law, UN or something else. That's how it always was, and always will be (until aliens attack us  )

How is that related to... anything?

[mainiac]

From my position, we've already lost the game played by Western rules, since the Western military forces have shown their position of double-standards.

The only potential winning move is to break the rules to leverage the playing field.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOoXwxqeVzg

[Helgoland]

Have you seen what Iraq has done to the US? If anything, they've lost. The US is a waning power - and you strive to emulate it?
The real game is economic, not military. And Russia can break the military rules all it wants, it won't help against the invisible fist of economics, especially when the economic giants make it swing in the right direction.

(Damn ninjas, I meant to reply directly to Sergarr...)

[Sergarr]

We can't win the economical game without winning the political/military one.

Otherwise our country will return to 90s and most likely will break into pieces.

I don't want that. Nobody I know wants that. Nobody wants 90s all over again.

[mainiac]

Have you seen what Iraq has done to the US? If anything, they've lost. The US is a waning power - and you strive to emulate it?
The real game is economic, not military. And Russia can break the military rules all it wants, it won't help against the invisible fist of economics, especially when the economic giants make it swing in the right direction.

(Damn ninjas, I meant to reply directly to Sergarr...)

And Europe is the gay/minority best friend in the movie giving the horrible advice "Go back to Russia, girl, you see how crazy he is for you!"

[Ukrainian Ranger]

We can't win the economical game without winning the political/military one.

Otherwise our country will return to 90s and most likely will break into pieces.

I don't want that. Nobody I know wants that. Nobody wants 90s all over again.

I'll tell you what Russia should do to avoid new 90s or something much, much worse

a) Arrest Putin and send him to Hague for his crimes
b) Recall all your troops from Ukraine, including Crimea
c) Admit Ukrainian (Georgian, Moldavian and so on) sovereignty
d) Run truly democratic elections
e) Start developing your economy instead of wasting oil money on various shit

Of cause that is something Russia will never do.  You will prefer to start a nuclear Armageddon to that

[Sergarr]

We can't win the economical game without winning the political/military one.

Otherwise our country will return to 90s and most likely will break into pieces.

I don't want that. Nobody I know wants that. Nobody wants 90s all over again.

I'll tell you what Russia should do to avoid new 90s or something much, much worse

a) Arrest Putin and send him to Hague for his crimes
b) Recall all your troops from Ukraine, including Crimea
c) Admit Ukrainian (Georgian, Moldavian and so on) sovereignty
d) Run truly democratic elections
e) Start developing your economy instead of wasting oil money on various shit

Of cause that is something Russia will never do.  You will prefer to start a nuclear Armageddon to that

In the end of 1980s and beginning of 1990s:
a) we recalled our troops from the Eastern Germany,
b) we arrested Communistic Party
c) admitted everyones sovereignty (literally, Yeltzin said "everybody can take as much sovereignty as they want").
d) Run a truly democratic elections (electing Yeltzin; he was a very charismatic leader)
e) Developed the economy by capitalizing and privatizing most of it.

End result: everything is in complete and utter shit

We already did what you've proposed.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

a) we recalled our troops from the Eastern Germany,

OK

b) we arrested Communistic Party

How many communsists were imprisioned? And when Communistic party was banned?

c) admitted everyones sovereignty (literally, Yeltzin said "everybody can take as much sovereignty as they want").

Especially Chechnya.... Plus Russian-Georgian, Russian-Moldavian, Russian-Azerbaijani wars, first attempt to grab Crimea

d) Run a truly democratic elections (electing Yeltzin; he was a very charismatic leader)

Tanks firing in a parliament building is soooo democratic

e) Developed the economy by capitalizing and privatizing most of it.

You mean started to spend national money on manors for oligarchs?  Not the best way to develop economy

[smjjames]

It went to shit because you let corruption and the oligarchs run amok, or something. And made the mistake of electing putin.