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Petro Poroshenko

5 (29.4%)

Yulia Tymoshenko

2 (11.8%)

Oleg Lyashko

2 (11.8%)

Anatoly Hrytsenko

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Other

6 (35.3%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[Helgoland]

In the end of 1980s and beginning of 1990s:
a) we recalled our troops from the Eastern Germany,
b) we arrested Communistic Party
c) admitted everyones sovereignty (literally, Yeltzin said "everybody can take as much sovereignty as they want").
d) Run a truly democratic elections (electing Yeltzin; he was a very charismatic leader)
e) Developed the economy by capitalizing and privatizing most of it.

End result: everything is in complete and utter shit

We already did what you've proposed.

Let me pull a UR as well:

a) What would've happened if you hadn't? The civilian population would've laid siege to the bases, denying reinforcements, leaving you with the choice of either taking the most humiliating defeat since 1917 or starting WWIII.
b) Where did that happen? Putin doesn't appear to be in jail, and neither do many people within his inner circle. Some were arrested, sure, but there's never been a de-communistification like the denazification that allowed my home country to come to terms with its past.
c) What UR said, basically. Also there's a difference between being forced to admit it and respecting it.
d) There's more to democracy than elections, as can be seen quite impressively in various mideastern countries right now. Also in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. Also in Western Ukraine, from the Russian perspective as presented by Knit at least.
e) Developing economy \neq privatizing everything in shady procedures! Again, this shows a fixation with America. The Chinese way would've been a viable alternative, or the Western European one: Free markets, free economy, but the whole thing is guided by the state by giving incentives to do stuff that's good for the country.

[Sergarr]

How many communsists were imprisioned? And when Communistic party was banned?

http://www.prlib.ru/History/Pages/Item.aspx?itemid=309 - ban on KPSS - The Communistic Party.

Especially Chechnya.... Plus Russian-Georgian, Russian-Moldavian, Russian-Azerbaijani wars, first attempt to grab Crimea

Remind me, did Chechnya run an actual referendum on independence, or was it a power grab by the local government and military forces close to them? Don't know about others, but about Crimea...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_sovereignty_referendum,_1991

They actually voted for their independence back there. And it was YOUR government that crushed that independence. YOUR government, not OUR.

Tanks firing in a parliament building is soooo democratic

Doesn't change the fact he was democratically elected by truly democratic elections. He was a bad president, but he was democratically elected.

You mean started to spend national money on manors for oligarchs?  Not the best way to develop economy

There are people even now that claim that the best way to develop a country was to privatize everything and reduce the governmental control to zero. And these people were in charge of the economical reforms. The liberals.

These reforms and their results are the reason why "liberal" is a swear word in Russia.

In the end of 1980s and beginning of 1990s:
a) we recalled our troops from the Eastern Germany,
b) we arrested Communistic Party
c) admitted everyones sovereignty (literally, Yeltzin said "everybody can take as much sovereignty as they want").
d) Run a truly democratic elections (electing Yeltzin; he was a very charismatic leader)
e) Developed the economy by capitalizing and privatizing most of it.

End result: everything is in complete and utter shit

We already did what you've proposed.

Let me pull a UR as well:

a) What would've happened if you hadn't? The civilian population would've laid siege to the bases, denying reinforcements, leaving you with the choice of either taking the most humiliating defeat since 1917 or starting WWIII.
b) Where did that happen? Putin doesn't appear to be in jail, and neither do many people within his inner circle. Some were arrested, sure, but there's never been a de-communistification like the denazification that allowed my home country to come to terms with its past.
c) What UR said, basically. Also there's a difference between being forced to admit it and respecting it.
d) There's more to democracy than elections, as can be seen quite impressively in various mideastern countries right now. Also in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. Also in Western Ukraine, from the Russian perspective as presented by Knit at least.
e) Developing economy \neq privatizing everything in shady procedures! Again, this shows a fixation with America. The Chinese way would've been a viable alternative, or the Western European one: Free markets, free economy, but the whole thing is guided by the state by giving incentives to do stuff that's good for the country.

a) USSR has crushed plenty of revolts in it's time; Remember Czech?
b) Ban on KPSS.
c) The Tatarstan was at one moment very close to achieving independence, thankfully Putin stopped that.
d) Changing the goal post, UR said nothing about democracy, only about truly democratical elections.
e) We (the common people) had exactly zero (ZERO) control over our government at the moment. China was an incredibly poor state at the moment, btw. The "liberal" economists have decided that the best way was to privatize everything, and that's what they did. They did not asked anybody if that was the best choice. They just did it.

[smjjames]

Reduce governmental control to zero? Like absolutely no regulations on anything, not even stuff where lots of harm could be inflicted if it wasn't regulated?

[Sergarr]

Reduce governmental control to zero? Like absolutely no regulations on anything, not even stuff where lots of harm could be inflicted if it wasn't regulated?

I know this sounds insane, but the old total governmental control system had so much bad reputation that people were very happy when the new radical liberal government started to demolish every single controlling institution.

[Helgoland]

So why not take a lesson from artillerymen? Once over, once under, third one on the spot.

[Sergarr]

So why not take a lesson from artillerymen? Once over, once under, third one on the spot.

That's what Putin has been trying to do since 2000.

Evidently though, it still doesn't work out, since the core of the problem - the oligarch, were only suppressed, but not killed.

He should have killed all of them, when he could.

[smjjames]

Reduce governmental control to zero? Like absolutely no regulations on anything, not even stuff where lots of harm could be inflicted if it wasn't regulated?

I know this sounds insane, but the old total governmental control system had so much bad reputation that people were very happy when the new radical liberal government started to demolish every single controlling institution.

Lol, so you decided to go to the other extreme? Though I guess coming from that perspective, it seems reasonable to try going the other extreme.

I guess the lession Russia now needs to learn is that total absolute control isn't good, but neither is absolutely no regulation at all.

So why not take a lesson from artillerymen? Once over, once under, third one on the spot.

That's what Putin has been trying to do since 2000.

Evidently though, it still doesn't work out, since the core of the problem - the oligarch, were only suppressed, but not killed.

He should have killed all of them, when he could.

And himself since apparently he is also an oligarch and apparently supports them.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

e) We (the common people) had exactly zero (ZERO) control over our government at the moment.

As if you have any control over Putin.... Or had any control in USSR

There are a way to control government. Protests and revolts. If you aren'y ready to do that, you will have zero control over government forever

[Sergarr]

e) We (the common people) had exactly zero (ZERO) control over our government at the moment.

As if you have any control over Putin.... Or had any control in USSR

There are a way to control government. Protests and revolts. If you aren'y ready to do that, you will have zero control over government forever

Protests, revolts and revolutions always makes things worse than they were in the short term.

And besides, aren't Western governments being controlled by their population without endless strings of revolts?

[Darvi]

And besides, aren't Western governments being controlled by their population without endless strings of revolts?

You haven't really paid much attention to the US lately have you.

[Sergarr]

And besides, aren't Western governments being controlled by their population without endless strings of revolts?

You haven't really paid much attention to the US lately have you.

US is an empire of evil, though. You can expect them to trample over their population while at the same time claiming that they work for the "Greater Good" of all Americans. [/sarcasm] 

[Ukrainian Ranger]

And besides, aren't Western governments being controlled by their population without endless strings of revolts?

Protests are rather common in Western countries

Revolts are tool of times when protests are ignored or impossible

Many more protests\revolts don't happen because governments usually try to not do something that will spring those

[Darvi]

evil

Alright, now there's no worth in listening to you anymore.

[Sergarr]

evil

Alright, now there's no worth in listening to you anymore.

I should have added a smiley or a [sarcasm] tag.

[Knit tie]

Well, would you look at that! This thread has already pretty much devolved into prorussians and antirussians insulting each other!