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No

Only Judeism

Only Islam

Yes to both Judeism and Islam

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

hurray 100 pages and no flame war
Also hurray we are having an a legion discussion with no flame war

I applaud you bay12

[TD1]

Dead babies: Justified because it breaks people.

Not to mention the entire life God just evilly cast off as a fricking means to an end.

Your argument is one thing I could hate about religion. The unbelievable arrogance.

[Graknorke]

I mean not give them their life
Life is a gift by the way guys
Also you're (again) punishing the people that that person was sent to save

I'm kind of curious about this, even ignoring that eternal bliss sounds by far preferable to generally tedious and sometimes outright unenjoyable life, making it a pretty poor substitute.
Is everybody meant to save other people?

EDIT: Cool it dwarfy. We just broke the 100 page mark but that doesn't mean we should give up on having the thread not locked.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Dead babies: Justified because it breaks people.

Not to mention the entire life God just evilly cast off as a fricking means to an end.

Your argument is one thing I could hate about religion. The unbelievable arrogance.

What?
It's not like god just offs them for no reason at all
And arrogance?

I get that that's your opinion but please keep comments like that out

It's ok to say that you think I'm wrong
It's bordering insult to call me arrogant

I mean not give them their life
Life is a gift by the way guys
Also you're (again) punishing the people that that person was sent to save

I'm kind of curious about this, even ignoring that eternal bliss sounds by far preferable to generally tedious and sometimes outright unenjoyable life, making it a pretty poor substitute.
Is everybody meant to save other people?

EDIT: Cool it dwarfy. We just broke the 100 page mark but that doesn't mean we should give up on having the thread not locked.

That is one of the purposes of existing
There are also other jobs that man was given

[TD1]

EDIT: Cool it dwarfy. We just broke the 100 page mark but that doesn't mean we should give up on having the thread not locked.

Yea, yea. I regretted posting it soon afterwards. Sorry Cryxis, it's just your argument is a bit alien to me.

Ninja:

I'm not calling you arrogant. I am saying it's arrogant in general. And regardless of whether God offs them for no reason or not, he just killed someone because he wanted to. The result doesn't matter. He wanted to kill someone, so he did. Free will is lacking here. His omnibenevolence is lacking, as he obviously valued the atheist turning Christian over somebody's life.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Yes he did
So that's one soul to he's in and another possibly on the way

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

I understand that that is a bit morbid but eh

[Frumple]

... though, please try for a different example, there, Cryx. "If you're atheist, it's okay if your baby is killed" -- regardless of the reason -- is one of the most frankly fucking horrific things I've heard in a long time.

I didn't mean that at all
No

Heck it could have been a Christian mother and it brought the aethiast husband to god
Or one of their other kids
Or family members or possibly extremely close friends

Then... you really shouldn't have said it. And you're still saying, "Death of children = good thing if it brings people to worship YWHW". Which... again. Is a pretty terrible thing to say. Kinda' in line with the actions of YWHW, but, well, I've noted my general opinion of that particular monstrosity before. Current discussion really isn't helping that opinion, either, bleh.

And abortion is human choice

... actually, it often isn't. Pretty sure the majority of causes for the death of unborn children (which would include non-induced abortion, something that isn't even remotely uncommon) are natural, which would put them in the domain of YWHW.

God can have people die of natural disaster for the same reasons but he can't really control if someone walks up and shoots the guy

Actually... the former should entirely allow it to do something about the latter. Just drop a freak lightning strike or meteorite or somethin' on 'em. Earthquake, laden swallow to the windshield, whatever. The way exists, if apparently not the will.

Also you're (again) punishing the people that that person was sent to save

That remains part of the point.

[Arcvasti]

Is for spiritual things: The act of murder is sinful, no matter what the extenuating circumstances. Christianity is VERY clear on this. Killing for the greater good or in self-defense is still wrong.

This is explicitly outside the realm of the bible's text

Killing in self-defense is fine. Killing for the "greater good" (in particular, through war or executions) is also not sinful, insofar as the text itself is concerned. Murder is sinful, but there's considerably more to killing than murder, and much of it is not inherently sinful by the measure of the biblical texts. It's either not mentioned or outright endorsed, depending on the situation.

Regardless, there's been no question as to if the act of killing the child itself would be sinful or not -- that was explicitly noted straight from the start. The question isn't if the act would be terrible, but whether it would be selfless to do so even in the face of that, when considering the scenario of a guaranteed entrance to heaven for the deceased.

As for the identity bit, I'm not entirely sure that part matters to those that hold that the unborn are ensouled.

However, at least some Christian denominations believe that Original Sin still weighs down the souls of the unbaptized. So, for maximum chances of instant heaven babies, they would have to be born and baptized before being killed.

As for killing being immoral being outside of the bibles text... I'm pretty sure Jesus said at least something about killing[Or even violence], even in self defense being wrong.

You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Pretty explicit. Killing in self-defense is not something the Bible is OK with. Jesus was a big fan of pacifism.

Also, this passage might be relevant:

21You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not kill[or murder]; and whosoever shall kill[or murder] shall be in danger of the judgment:

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Which isn't as relevant as I thought. Still, putting it out there.

As for abortion...

Preventation before abortion. While Christians[Or at least Catholics] frown on birth control[No idea why. I've only gotten silly half-answers from anyone I've asked.], its better then abortion. If you MUST do it, do it quickly and cleanly before the infant matures.

My opinion, not the Church's. The Church's opinion on things that aren't explicitly stated in the Bible seems to consist mainly of extrapolation and ad libbing.

@Cryxis You're really digging yourself deeper. Please, just don't. Just. Don't. Consider locking the thread for a while to let things simmer down. Or just lock it entirely. I'm not sure if I should call Toady in on this. I don't want it to come to that. Also, try looking for bible verses to support your statements. Or, instead of saying "I personally believe", NOT POSTING. This is not a thread about your personal beliefs. This is a thread about Christian beliefs. The two have a lot of overlap, but don't mistake the former for the latter.

@NoneCryxisPeople: At this point, the thread has mostly degenerated into people pouncing on every inconsistency in what Cryxsis says. Forum Guidelines Not sure if anything here is breaking them. But some things here are coming pretty close to it. Let us maintain our chill composure.

... though, please try for a different example, there, Cryx. "If you're atheist, it's okay if your baby is killed" -- regardless of the reason -- is one of the most frankly fucking horrific things I've heard in a long time.

You mean BESIDES systematically killing babies to make them go to heaven? Not that what you're describing isn't horrific, but I'd say that my example is pretty bad.

EDIT: While I was typing this, things seem to have cooled down. The bolded parts of this post may no longer be relevant.

EDIT: Cool it dwarfy. We just broke the 100 page mark

Who uses 15ppp?

[Graknorke]

Do those jobs vary by person, or are they uniform across everybody? If they are catered to an individual, how does one find out what theirs is? And indeed, even if not catered to an individual, how do you? I mean you could say the Bible, but that means that not even half of humanity will be doing what it's meant to be.
I know this is a deluge of questions, but I've never heard the view that people have literal duties that they are obliged to complete.

... though, please try for a different example, there, Cryx. "If you're atheist, it's okay if your baby is killed" -- regardless of the reason -- is one of the most frankly fucking horrific things I've heard in a long time.

You mean BESIDES systematically killing babies to make them go to heaven? Not that what you're describing isn't horrific, but I'd say that my example is pretty bad.

Wasn't the point of that discussion the horrifying implications of... something about dying children being exempt from sin or something. I kind of forgot.

EDIT: Cool it dwarfy. We just broke the 100 page mark

Who uses 15ppp?

Fun fact: 41% of all flamewars on Bay12 are caused by arguments over the best ppp setting.

[TD1]

Yes he did
So that's one soul to he's in and another possibly on the way

Where is the free will? You believe the soul is the person? Well, imagine that baby was your father. Put it in a personal context: Does it seem like something a loving God would do? Depending on the stage of the child, the pain cold be immense. It would be like God torturing your father to force someone to break under strain.


On earth, we call those people dictators.

[Aedel]

This may make a few sparks, but i'm curious about what people think about this.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Do those jobs vary by person, or are they uniform across everybody? If they are catered to an individual, how does one find out what theirs is? And indeed, even if not catered to an individual, how do you? I mean you could say the Bible, but that means that not even half of humanity will be doing what it's meant to be.
I know this is a deluge of questions, but I've never heard the view that people have literal duties that they are obliged to complete.

Well I mean it's kinda just personal duties
Like taking care of nature, there are plenty of people  doing it and not everyone has to do it





Also

Also abortion meaning having a doctor do it
And that is (in my opinion) terribly common in America

Just clearing what I meant when I said that

Yes he did
So that's one soul to he's in and another possibly on the way

Where is the free will? You believe the soul is the person? Well, imagine that baby was your father. Put it in a personal context: Does it seem like something a loving God would do? Depending on the stage of the child, the pain cold be immense. It would be like God torturing your father to force someone to break under strain.


On earth, we call those people dictators.

Free will is converting
I didn't say they would "break under the strain"
But it would open a door for grieving and such

Call it what you will

[TD1]

I don't want a God who kills children to get me to love him. Again, to put it in context let me change the words a bit:

I don't want a Girlfriend who kills children to get me to love her.

---
If you saw her coming, you would bar the door.

[Arcvasti]

This may make a few sparks, but i'm curious about what people think about this.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If **I** were the devil I'd get everybody to commit mass infanticide thinking they were doing good. Or gone with most of the above script and then gotten my followers to start a bloody revolt against the Romans. Or just encouraged a certain German's empire to swallow the globe, eliminating the only people who followed YHWH. Interesting theory though. Philip Pullman could probably make a neat series out of that. And blood drinking rituals, if I were told out of context a religion had them, would totally have me noping out of there faster then anything else besides maybe human sacrifice.