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Author Topic: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014  (Read 33620 times)

LordSlowpoke

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2014, 08:42:27 am »

canada is basically europe
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mainiac

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2014, 08:52:00 am »

This debate is downright scary.  Because everyone underestimated the independence crowd the technocrats never bothered to chime in with advice about what they saw as unlikely independence.  Now we've got a situation where the independence crowd is saying things that are horribly, horribly misguided like it would be a good idea for Scotland to stay on the pound.  They should know better on the eve of the vote.  I just can't find the words to explain how scary it is to think that people might be running a country when they can't get the easy but super important parts right.

This is what representative democracy is for.

Yes that is what it's for.  And I find it scary that they would chose representatives for their movement who would advocate such a horrible idea.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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pisskop

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2014, 08:54:47 am »

This debate is downright scary.  Because everyone underestimated the independence crowd the technocrats never bothered to chime in with advice about what they saw as unlikely independence.  Now we've got a situation where the independence crowd is saying things that are horribly, horribly misguided like it would be a good idea for Scotland to stay on the pound.  They should know better on the eve of the vote.  I just can't find the words to explain how scary it is to think that people might be running a country when they can't get the easy but super important parts right.

This is what representative democracy is for.

Yes that is what it's for.  And I find it scary that they would chose representatives for their movement who would advocate such a horrible idea.
Charisma.  Democracy is unfortunately doomed to be a series of immediate popularity contests.
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RedKing

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2014, 08:59:15 am »

This debate is downright scary.  Because everyone underestimated the independence crowd the technocrats never bothered to chime in with advice about what they saw as unlikely independence.  Now we've got a situation where the independence crowd is saying things that are horribly, horribly misguided like it would be a good idea for Scotland to stay on the pound.  They should know better on the eve of the vote.  I just can't find the words to explain how scary it is to think that people might be running a country when they can't get the easy but super important parts right.

This is what representative democracy is for.

Yes that is what it's for.  And I find it scary that they would chose representatives for their movement who would advocate such a horrible idea.
I'm sure Republicans feel the same way when a Democratic legislature is elected anywhere, or Democrats when a Republican one is. Seeing your opponents as simultaneously hopeless idiots and diabolical schemers bent on the destruction of everything you believe in, is one of the fine traditions of representative democracy.
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mainiac

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2014, 09:09:44 am »

I'm sure Republicans feel the same way when a Democratic legislature is elected anywhere, or Democrats when a Republican one is. Seeing your opponents as simultaneously hopeless idiots and diabolical schemers bent on the destruction of everything you believe in, is one of the fine traditions of representative democracy.

But partisan politics can't explain the pound decision.  There are hard decisions and easy ones.  This is one of the easiest.

There is a certain level that we just take for granted and that's below the level.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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sebcool

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2014, 09:43:33 am »

I'm sure Republicans feel the same way when a Democratic legislature is elected anywhere, or Democrats when a Republican one is. Seeing your opponents as simultaneously hopeless idiots and diabolical schemers bent on the destruction of everything you believe in, is one of the fine traditions of representative democracy.

But partisan politics can't explain the pound decision.  There are hard decisions and easy ones.  This is one of the easiest.

There is a certain level that we just take for granted and that's below the level.

So what currency should Scotland use, then? I doubt making their own separate currency would be much better, since that tends to be an absolute nightmare economically (though that's pretty much the case every time you change currency). You could use the euro, but then again, see economical nightmare. Using the pound kinda makes sense IMO. There are enough problems already without factoring in implementing a new currency.
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ed boy

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2014, 09:50:04 am »

My family is very Scottish, with various generations living near Inverness as far back as records go. However, since my parents moved to England, neither they nor I am allowed to vote in this, whereas non-Scottish people who live there are allowed to, which miffs me a fair bit. They are also changing the voting age from 18 to 16 for the referendum, which is something that I feel is a bad idea.

As for Scottish independence, I reckon it's a bad thing all round. Scotland is very heavily subsidized by England, and an independent Scotland would be in dire financial straights.
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smjjames

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2014, 09:50:15 am »

Well, the Scandinavian countries all call their currency the Kroner, right? Nothing wrong with using the same name as the pound.

Though if you guys want to go Nordic and call it the Kroner, go for it.

As I said in the Europe politics thread, the US had to deal with a LOT of issues after independence, not the least of which was how to do economy and at least you get to decide for yourselves how to deal with it rather than people in faraway* London deciding it.

*I'm using 'farway' in the figurative term here since the Atlantic beats the distance separation, though I'm sure at times it feels like theres an ocean separating the Scots from the Brits.
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Squeegy

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2014, 09:59:25 am »

My family is very Scottish, with various generations living near Inverness as far back as records go. However, since my parents moved to England, neither they nor I am allowed to vote in this, whereas non-Scottish people who live there are allowed to, which miffs me a fair bit. They are also changing the voting age from 18 to 16 for the referendum, which is something that I feel is a bad idea.

As for Scottish independence, I reckon it's a bad thing all round. Scotland is very heavily subsidized by England, and an independent Scotland would be in dire financial straights.
So forcing Scotland to become economically viable and self-sufficient is a bad thing? Why are you encouraging financial irresponsibility?

Besides, if this thread is anything to go by the Nordic countries will be happy to pick up the tab.
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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2014, 10:00:13 am »

As someone whose not even on the right side of the atlantic to be affected by it, I don't have much to say here. But its still worth a ptw.
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mainiac

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #55 on: September 17, 2014, 10:15:16 am »


So what currency should Scotland use, then? I doubt making their own separate currency would be much better, since that tends to be an absolute nightmare economically (though that's pretty much the case every time you change currency). You could use the euro, but then again, see economical nightmare. Using the pound kinda makes sense IMO. There are enough problems already without factoring in implementing a new currency.

There is no question Scotland would need another currency.  It sounds like a lot of effort to the layperson but that's because people just take it for granted that economists do their jobs and get exchange rate equilibrium pretty much right.  Staying on the pound would be ignoring that.

We actually have a fantastically good example of the difficulties of changing to a new currency vs. the difficulties of having your currency price not reflect your labor markets.

Remember when the Euro was adopted?  A lot of work, some of it expensive.  But really a drop in the bucket.  That's how hard it is to adopt a new currency.
Look at Spain right now.  Their currency can not adjust to reflect their labor markets.  Look at the unemployment.  Look at the huge drop in national output.  That's the scale of problem we are talking about when currency prices dont reflect labor markets.

Ask yourself, whose problems would you rather have, Spain around 2000 or Spain today?

(Of course the problem can also go in the opposite direction as well.  If Scotland beats productivity in England then Scotland will have spiraling inflation problems until that inflation eats into incomes enough to balance the national account.  There aren't as good examples of that (thankfully) but you can look to the recent inflation problems in China until they adjusted the exchange rate as somewhat similar).
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Guardian G.I.

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #56 on: September 17, 2014, 11:26:29 am »

Posting to watch.
I expect a Quebec style outcome for the referendum with No having a minuscule lead in the end.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 11:28:11 am by Guardian G.I. »
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Darvi

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2014, 11:35:42 am »

As a mainlander of both English and Scottish descent, I support independence solely because it makes the rest of the union freak out.
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Biowraith

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #58 on: September 17, 2014, 11:40:44 am »

If we do get independence, and don't [get to] keep the pound, it is my hope that we'll call our new currency "Credits" just so we can sound more futuristic than the rest of the world.
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Darvi

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Re: Scotland Decides, 18th September, 2014
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2014, 11:42:10 am »

If we do get independence, and don't [get to] keep the pound, it is my hope that we'll call our new currency "Credits" just so we can sound more futuristic than the rest of the world.
This guy has the right idea!
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