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[smakemupagus]

Yep, very similar distance/formation as last time.

Code: [Select]

SU.O.......G.DM
SUEO.......GLDM
SU.O.......G.DM
SUEO.......GLDM
SU.O.......G.DM

S is for Snaga
U uruk
E orc elite
O orc grunt

G guard
D hammer legion
L legion elite
M marksdwarf

....

8 of these battles going on frame by frame is a thing of beauty.

[smakemupagus]

Round 2 Overall:
ORCS 6 :: DWARVES 2

(1 ) 9 Dwarves live
(2 ) 16 Orcs live
(3 ) 10 Orcs live
(4 ) 15 Dwarves live
(5 ) 8 Orcs live
(6 ) 8 Orcs live
(7 ) 15 Orcs live
(8 ) 16 Orcs live

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So:  Orcs are indeed the winner!  Dwarven gladiator masters, if you want to re-equip your squads/champions or otherwise tweak the ruleset, I'd be up for running a re-match in a week or so.  I don't think it will take huge changes for Dwarves to come out on top. 

It was hard to see details in 8 fights simultaneously but some trends were clear.
- Axe grunts for both sides were serviceable line infantry, nothing spectacular.
- Warhammers seemed the most effective weapon in an initial clash but lack real killing power in the extended melee.
- Uruks are boss, Ironbone macuahuitls were "good enough" even without penetrating armor on most hits, they did a fine amount of crushing damage
- Sword-ronin was by a significant margin the most effective Champion -- like other uruks, he shrugs off injuries, and fights on until he's really grievously damaged.
- Ologs mostly were good for tanking lots of javelins.  His Copper maul strikes were mostly absorbed by armor.
- Axe-dwarf champion would slash off limbs until they took a hit or two, then goes down in pain like anyone else.  Maybe he could get full steel mail.
- Crossbow Dwarf was the least effective Champion and probably should be replaced with a melee warrior, or he at least needs several levels more skill bonus.
- Javeliners seemed slightly better than bow-snaga in the first couple salvos, but most used up their 10 ammo and effectiveness charging in with bayonettes fixed was low.

[slay_mithos]

Strange, repeating crossbows are often the deadliest weapons in my dwarven forts, and he was equipped with steel bolts.

Maybe the bolt type should be changed to piercing or hammer heads?
Cutting bolts tend to only work well against small-ish targets for me.

[StagnantSoul]

*rolls platinum rings across table* *cries* StagnantSoul cancels post sarcastic remark: throwing tantrum.

[Splint]

This... Actually explains alot with Blackhold's militia now.

[Meph]

I'd love to see more setups like this.

Very curious how Warlocks do in such controlled battles, with their ghouls and skeletons. Although obviously they would lack the spells and overlord boni.

[smakemupagus]

This... Actually explains alot with Blackhold's militia now.

Yes of course this is partly a balance experiment cleverly disguised as fun!

I was thinking of some tweaks for Orcs, small things like maybe make the nice kite shields non-default.  Since Meph was considering to roll out race specific GUI options in the future, i have a few optional difficulty settings in mind too.  This experiment suggests to me that Orcs are indeed "ahead" in early/mid game but not by a huge amount.  Late game i am pretty sure dwarven legendary/superior volcanic gear trumps everything else, but at that point you're set either way  

The default world settings for Orcs are a lot more forgiving than they used to be, which is probably a good thing since a lot of new players used to get stomped and veteran Orc players can still use the GUI to go with something closer to "classic" settings - e.g. choose only 0 or 1 trade partner, and set at least one civilized enemy to attack "very early". 

Strange, repeating crossbows are often the deadliest weapons in my dwarven forts, and he was equipped with steel bolts.
Maybe the bolt type should be changed to piercing or hammer heads?
Cutting bolts tend to only work well against small-ish targets for me.

Agreed, the broadheads were deflected by armor, fort mode invaders have more vulnerable spots than these gladiators do.  The fairly close range doesn't work to his advantage, in some of the battles the orcs were able to get in his face early.

I'd love to see more setups like this.
Very curious how Warlocks do in such controlled battles, with their ghouls and skeletons.

By all means, if you or others set up a roster I can run some battles.  I don't know the other modes well enough to know what's a ~fair comparison though.

Spoiler:  "little bugs(?) i've found while doing this" (click to show/hide)

* Legendary maul/hammer/mace/knuckles as of v6.0 still use their special attack every time because of the hardcoded EDGE/BLUNT attack ratio
* Possible typo in line 1923 inorganic_metal [TENSILE_FRACTURE:144000] (volcanic) probably intended to be 1440000 (but fortunately this stat isn't used in normal combat)
* 248 inorganic_z_orcfort [CDI:USAGE_HINT:FLEEING] (stickbombs) should be ATTACK

[sayke]

I would say just see how the dwarves do with crossbows and piercing bolts - the cutting javelins are the wrong tool for the job in this case =D

[smakemupagus]

Wouldn't it be fun to have a few mages on both sides to make things even more chaotic?

Yeah but I'm not sure there's any dwarven mage I trust in close quarters...
Suggestions?

On the orc side I know how to chose a support or single target loadout, like a nice Druid with polymorph runebolts.
Or we can just go all out AOE frostskalds and stickbombas   Kill em all and let Armok find his own...

[Meph]

Stone are good melee/group fighters, as are the black mages. Fire should be reasonably save as well, the arena doesnt burn.

[Insanegame27]

what I want to see
late game dwarves vs late game orcs.
orcs would have (mithril/adamantine daikatanas) or (welded wolfram lucerne polehammers) + shield + bloodsteel armour
Dwarves, i dont play them often, but have steel/adamantine zweihanders or warhammers + shield (with warhammers) + steel armour
also shaggy mamakil vs dwarven (something roughly equal? what?)
orcish dire wolves vs mastiffs
let the !!FUN!! begin
Bets? I've got a caged bronze colossus on the orcs

[Splint]

what I want to see
late game dwarves vs late game orcs.
orcs would have (mithril/adamantine daikatanas) or (welded wolfram lucerne polehammers) + shield + bloodsteel armour
Dwarves, i dont play them often, but have steel/adamantine zweihanders or warhammers + shield (with warhammers) + steel armour
also shaggy mumak vs dwarven (something roughly equal? what?)
orcish dire wolves vs mastiffs
let the !!FUN!! begin
Bets? I've got a caged bronze colossus on the orcs

Late game vs late game does sound pretty awesome, and the closest equivalent to a mumak is probably a golem and the golem has a an unfair advantage unless mumaks can be armored. An iron armored mumak will probably have a fair shot against a basic brass hammergolem. Dunno about spear or sword.

[Insanegame27]

upping my bet to a dragon if the mumaks are armoured

[slay_mithos]

Late game dwarves?

Ok, so full runes on everything, plus poisons, and hellfire turrets.
Pretty sure that nothing can resist hellfire (net even the clowns), and full sets of runes on everything makes the wielder pretty much godly.

Current dwarves have access to soo much high end things that going for a fully high end would make them too much to handle for any race without cheating magic (insta kill by banshies for example).

EDIT:
Also, dwarves can upgrade weapons and armours to great effects before applying the runes.
They have access to the very best armours and shields (used to be humans that gave plans).

[Insanegame27]

heres my test:
1 olog with full bloodsteel armour and with a wolfram lucerne polehammer. proficient in shiedl, armour, hammer+mace (pretty sure its a hammer skill but i cant remember and i'm not taking chances)
six great axe + full bloodsteel orcs
3 swordorcs with welded mithril dai-katanas + shield + full bloodsteel armour
3 snagas with full lamellar + bloodsteel composite bows + 10 arrows
3 shaggy mumak bulls (IDK how to armour them or wartrain them in arena mode)

VS

3 legionaire dwarfs with steel short sword + kite shield + full steel armour
3 legionaire dwarfs with steel mace + steel kite shield + full steel armour
3 legionaire dwarfs with steel battleaxe + steel kite shield + full steel armour
3 marksmen dwarves with steel xbow + 10 bolts + full steel armour
3 legionaire dwarfs with steel spear + steel kiteshield + full steel armour
3 elephants



I was about to upload to imgur but my computer overheated. orcs won