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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[Sean Mirrsen]

...avoid killing civilians, neutralize as many terrorists as possible

They're kinda the same thing here, but that probably depends on point of view.

It seems nobody makes a distinction between actual native self-defense forces sneakily supplied with foreign weapons but still fighting for their own cause, and actual foreign soldiers anymore.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Only Russians can call this guy

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 

a civilian.


What I am afraid of is that (pro)Russian forces inside Slovyansk will start blow stuff around following order to get as many civilian casualties as possible  and blame Ukrainian army afterwards.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Only Russians can call this guy

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 

a civilian.

Clothes do not a man military make. If anything, military people in civilian clothing are much more dangerous.

I do agree that he has some apparel that I wouldn't expect to see on a "retrofitted civilian" (what looks like a radio on the back of his belt is suspect), but for the most part all he's got are unmarked military fatigues, a cheap flak vest and a rocket launcher. Being objective here - you can't tell whether the guy is a soldier or an armed civilian, and what country he's opposing, if any. The picture does its best to provide context, but all it does is play into the bias of the viewer - people see what they want to see, not what is shown. The nature of the current political military (can't call it any other way) means that actual combatants on either side will do their best not to look like anything.

What I am afraid of is that (pro)Russian forces inside Slovyansk will start blow stuff around following order to get as many civilian casualties as possible  and blame Ukrainian army afterwards.

Well, they seem to be doing a pretty good job of not doing it so far. I mean, there's only so much you can do to affect the trajectory of the helicopter you shoot down, and additional missiles to change it course via proximity explosions are kinda costly.

[Sergarr]

It's hilarious how the entire Ukraine army cannot capture 1 (one) city with about a hundred "terrorists".

[Ukrainian Ranger]

an armed civilian

LOL
Besides any sane person understands that core of that forces are well trained men, not random guys that got weapons in their hands

It's hilarious how the entire Ukraine army cannot capture 1 (one) city with about a hundred "terrorists".

Well, Luckily Russian methods with carpet bombing own cities (Chechnya) is not used by Ukrainian army (not that Army seriously involved in fighting. It is national guard, police and Secret Service's special unit who do most of the job)

And I really like this. That is video in Russian were little black men announce hunting on little green men in Kharkiv region

[Sinistar]

It's hilarious how the entire Ukraine army cannot capture 1 (one) city with about a hundred "terrorists".

With all due respect Sergarr, a lot of countries would have problems re-capturing cities held by armed personnel when they are under constant pressure by a bigger neighboring country that threatens military intervention if they take any action against said armed personnel.  Especially if this bigger country has a sizable military force amassed along your borders to back it's threats.

And especially if said bigger country do not recognize those armed personnel as such but rather brand them as civilians. I could be wrong on this one though. Feel free to provide a source when any Russian official called those armed people "non-civilians" or such, I would honestly welcome this info.

Clothes do not a man military make. If anything, military people in civilian clothing are much more dangerous.

I do agree that he has some apparel that I wouldn't expect to see on a "retrofitted civilian" (what looks like a radio on the back of his belt is suspect), but for the most part all he's got are unmarked military fatigues, a cheap flak vest and a rocket launcher. Being objective here - you can't tell whether the guy is a soldier or an armed civilian, and what country he's opposing, if any. The picture does its best to provide context, but all it does is play into the bias of the viewer - people see what they want to see, not what is shown. The nature of the current political military (can't call it any other way) means that actual combatants on either side will do their best not to look like anything.

True, there is still no absolute evidence this armed people are any sort of professional military. A lot of speculation, yes, but let's play the devil's advocate and say we can't be certain until any major player in this game actually confirms those people were trained by them. Even then, if for example, these people are willing volunteers trained and supplied by Russian government, one could still argue they are not military until they officially declare allegiance to some form of established, recognized authority. Strictly speaking.

Still, question remains - how do you classify those people? Freedom fighters? Self-defense units? Terrorists? I can't say they are civilians, sorry. If anything, they fall under "militia" definition. Or weapon enthusiasts, heh? Downing a helicopter is a bit of an accomplishment for seemingly untrained, popular-revolution types.

[Owlbread]

I wish we had a referendum question as biased as the Donetsk one in Scotland.

[XXSockXX]

It's hilarious how the entire Ukraine army cannot capture 1 (one) city with about a hundred "terrorists".

With all due respect Sergarr, a lot of countries would have problems re-capturing cities held by armed personnel when they are under constant pressure by a bigger neighboring country that threatens military intervention if they take any action against said armed personnel.  Especially if this bigger country has a sizable military force amassed along your borders to back it's threats.

This. It's pretty hypocritical to make fun of the Ukrainian army in this situation, especially if you've been arguing the pro-Russian side.
With this diplomatic situation, no Western nation is going send special commandos to liberate the OSCE hostages either, as they would try if these were just ordinary terrorists.

That the rebels manage to down 2 helicopters at least shows that they are much better armed than your average concerned citizen.
Also Russian reaction is predictable but worrying:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27250026

Russia says Kiev's actions "killed the last hope" for a deal agreed last month in Geneva aimed at defusing the crisis.
President Vladimir Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov also described Ukraine's operation as "punitive".
Russia's foreign ministry earlier warned that any assaults by Ukraine's troops in the region would have "catastrophic consequences", triggering fears of an invasion by Moscow.
Separately, reports are coming in that several foreign journalists have been detained in Sloviansk.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/02/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA400LI20140502

Noting that Putin had warned before that any "punitive operation" would be a "criminal act", Dmitry Peskov told Russian news agencies that this was what had now happened at Slaviansk, where separatists seeking independence or annexation by Moscow are holding seven foreign European military observers.
Saying Putin had sent an envoy, Vladimir Lukin, to southeast Ukraine to negotiate their release, Peskov said that Lukin had not been heard from since the Ukrainian operation began.
"While Russia is making efforts to de-escalate and settle the conflict, the Kiev regime has turned to firing on civilian towns with military aircraft and has begun a punitive operation, effectively destroying the last hope of survival for the Geneva accord," he said, referring to a deal on April 17 signed by Russia, Ukraine, the United States and the European Union.

[Guardian G.I.]

I wish we had a referendum question as biased as the Donetsk one in Scotland.

There is a separate 'Remain at status quo' option in the Scottish ballot, am I right?

Biased propaganda video time, as seen on RIA Novosti:
Footage allegedly showing the wreckage of a Ukrainian helicopter shot down in Slavyansk by pro-Russian forces.
Ukrainian Mi-24 firing missiles.
The beginning of the assault on Slavyansk as seen (or, more precisely speaking, heard) from the city centre - distant gunshots and air raid sirens blaring.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Still, question remains - how do you classify those people? Freedom fighters? Self-defense units? Terrorists? I can't say they are civilians, sorry. If anything, they fall under "militia" definition. Or weapon enthusiasts, heh? Downing a helicopter is a bit of an accomplishment for seemingly untrained, popular-revolution types.

Unfortunately I kinda treat being "military" as a binary thing, meaning specifically "being in one nation's military", and a "civilian" is a typical antonym to "military" in my vernacular. So yeah, my terminology is off, sorry. They don't quite fit the label of "terrorists", as much as the Ukrainian government is eager to apply it though, so somewhere between a "freedom fighter" and a "self-defense fighter" might work. Is there such a thing as a "self-determination fighter"? They're not really fighting for freedom per se, they're fighting for, or think they're fighting for, some sort of right to self-determination, to prevent their ideological identity from being overridden by the existing government. "Identity self-defense fighters"?

Before UR interjects here, I mean this assuming they're not military, as so far they're like little green ninjas. Highly visible little green/brown ninjas. Everybody knows they're out there and fighting, but nobody can tell who they really are and whose orders they are following, if anyone's. Speculation abound, of course.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Militia is a neutral term. Civilians that've been armed and are acting in a military fashion.
Typed it into google, top two definitions:

1. A military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency.

    2. A military force that engages in rebel or terrorist activities, typically in opposition to a regular army.

Meanwhile, the 'self-defence units' of Crimea were russian soldiers, and it's kinda hard to differentiate them when they might be (aka: are) operating together with foreign military & even dress similarly.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/02/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA400LI20140502

Noting that Putin had warned before that any "punitive operation" would be a "criminal act", Dmitry Peskov told Russian news agencies that this was what had now happened at Slaviansk, where separatists seeking independence or annexation by Moscow are holding seven foreign European military observers.
Saying Putin had sent an envoy, Vladimir Lukin, to southeast Ukraine to negotiate their release, Peskov said that Lukin had not been heard from since the Ukrainian operation began.
"While Russia is making efforts to de-escalate and settle the conflict, the Kiev regime has turned to firing on civilian towns with military aircraft and has begun a punitive operation, effectively destroying the last hope of survival for the Geneva accord," he said, referring to a deal on April 17 signed by Russia, Ukraine, the United States and the European Union.

I'm curious, how did this envoy enter the country?

-A brief spat of googling later,
Seems like he's a cool human rights guy.
This is the closest I've found on his entry, which just says he was 'sent' back in february*.
http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140220/187727820/Putin-Offers-Ombudsman-as-Mediator-to-Ukraine.html

The most I've seen about cooperation with the Ukrainian gov is 'telephoning yanukovich' which is...not the most valid form of permission.

[Knit tie]

I think what Sean means is that Russian forces seem to not entirely be composed of actual soldiers. There are plenty of ordinary people, just in uniforn and with guns.

[Sheb]

Well, "Some random guy in uniform with a gun" match my definition of soldier pretty well. :p

Anyway, I'm wondering how that man was supposed to get into Ukraine, since the Ukrainian government banned entry to Russian and Crimean of fighting age.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

I'd postulate he crossed the sieve-like border with the rest of the Russians. But that's stating the obvious.

[Knit tie]

I mean ordinary people as in "without proper training and not really obeying orders, so there's a colossal potential for stupid actions."