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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[Sean Mirrsen]

I think what Sean means is that Russian forces seem to not entirely be composed of actual soldiers. There are plenty of ordinary people, just in uniforn and with guns.

I mean ordinary people as in "without proper training and not really obeying orders, so there's a colossal potential for stupid actions."

It's actually this, minus the "Russian forces" bit. Substitute that with "armed forces currently opposing Ukrainian military and the Right Sector in Eastern Ukraine", and it's good.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Sean, du you actually believe that Right Sector squads are  fighting there?

[XXSockXX]

-A brief spat of googling later,
Seems like he's a cool human rights guy.
This is the closest I've found on his entry, which just says he was 'sent' back in february*.
http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140220/187727820/Putin-Offers-Ombudsman-as-Mediator-to-Ukraine.html

Lukin was the Russian observer in the negotiations between Yanukovych and the opposition, other than the EU diplomats, he didn't sign the agreement that was supposed to end the Maidan protests (before Yanuk left the country and all).
Presumably he has remained in Ukraine as a diplomatic envoy or observer.
He was Russia's human rights ombudsman, so yeah he is a human rights guy, at least in Putin's interpretation of human rights.

Well, "Some random guy in uniform with a gun" match my definition of soldier pretty well. :p

Actually, even if we assume that there are no Russian soldiers in disguise fighting in Ukraine, we can safely conclude that there are experienced veterans among the militias.

[mainiac]

Even then, if for example, these people are willing volunteers trained and supplied by Russian government, one could still argue they are not military until they officially declare allegiance to some form of established, recognized authority. Strictly speaking.

(emphasis added)

Not under the Geneva conventions, to which Russia is a signatory.  Strictly speaking, Ukraine would be within their rights to execute any "volunteers" they found from Russia because "volunteers" is actually a euphemism for unlawful combatant and the country they have been sent into has full discretion under international law.

Not that Ukraine would actually do that.

While it's possible that real guerrilla could have figured out how to used wire guided missiles to shoot down helicopters, it's very unlikely they would have developed this level of proficiency so quickly.

[Guardian G.I.]

Well, "Some random guy in uniform with a gun" match my definition of soldier pretty well. :p

Actually, even if we assume that there are no Russian soldiers in disguise fighting in Ukraine, we can safely conclude that there are experienced veterans among the militias.

I think practically all people in the ranks of pro-Russian forces know how to use guns and (some of them, probably) have some combat experience from the times when they were conscripted in the Soviet Army.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Sean, du you actually believe that Right Sector squads are  fighting there?

I don't have enough concrete information to believe that, but given reports - however little they may be worth - and prior events, I have fairly little cause to believe otherwise as well.

[smjjames]

And now pro-russian forces have detained a CBS news crew :/

[GlyphGryph]

Yeah, it's an abuse of the term to call someone in an organized combat force wielding a rocket launcher a "civilian". Militia is the appropriate term, for when those people are not part of an actual army.

The Pro-Russian militias are Russian forces. Not Russian military forces, but countless links have been posted showing they are definitely Russian militia. You don't get to call yourself a "self-determination fighter" when you're going into a foreign country to do it. (countless links have been posted so far clarifying that these men are Russians, it's not a "maybe" thing)

Sean, you seem to have this issue where you keep popping into the thread, not reading anything that's been said so far, deciding in advance what you want to be true, and then ignoring any arguments to the contrary. It's... incredibly annoying.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Russian economy is going to be the biggest victim.

[mainiac]

Russian economy is going to be the biggest victim.

Well that and the civilian population.

[smjjames]

Yeah, it's an abuse of the term to call someone in an organized combat force wielding a rocket launcher a "civilian". Militia is the appropriate term, for when those people are not part of an actual army.

The Pro-Russian militias are Russian forces. Not Russian military forces, but countless links have been posted showing they are definitely Russian militia. You don't get to call yourself a "self-determination fighter" when you're going into a foreign country to do it. (countless links have been posted so far clarifying that these men are Russians, it's not a "maybe" thing)

Sean, you seem to have this issue where you keep popping into the thread, not reading anything that's been said so far, deciding in advance what you want to be true, and then ignoring any arguments to the contrary. It's... incredibly annoying.

Everybody agrees that the pro-Russian forces are Russian, but whether they are ethnic Russian with Ukranian citizenship or of Russian nationality and how many of them aren't actually Ukranian citizens is the question here.

[mainiac]

Everybody agrees that the pro-Russian forces are Russian, but whether they are ethnic Russian with Ukranian citizenship or of Russian nationality and how many of them aren't actually Ukranian citizens is the question here.

No it's really not.  It's been documented for a long time that people on the payroll of the Russian military are acting in eastern Ukraine.

It's true that the exact ratio of military to civilians isn't clear (and probably tilts civilian) but it's been obvious for a long time that this is a Spetznaz operation.

[smjjames]

Everybody agrees that the pro-Russian forces are Russian, but whether they are ethnic Russian with Ukranian citizenship or of Russian nationality and how many of them aren't actually Ukranian citizens is the question here.

No it's really not.  It's been documented for a long time that people on the payroll of the Russian military are acting in eastern Ukraine.

It's true that the exact composition isn't clear but it's been obvious for a long time that this is a Spetznaz operation.

How many of them are on the payroll and how many aren't? That's the thing.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Sean, you seem to have this issue where you keep popping into the thread, not reading anything that's been said so far, deciding in advance what you want to be true, and then ignoring any arguments to the contrary. It's... incredibly annoying.

Sorry if I'm annoying you, but honestly, I hardly follow the events here, or in the Ukraine. I check back through this thread mostly because it keeps hovering around the top of my Updated Topics. :/
I come in here usually to make an observation or a statement, more tossing fuel into a dying fire than anything - everybody here seems to mostly adhere to the same general line of thought and viewpoint regarding the events, and since to me the result seems biased, I try to toss in my own opinion, trying to be more objective - or so I think - so as to keep some manner of debate going as to Russia's true intentions.

If it seems like I am trolling, or anything of the kind - sorry, it's not deliberate. I just don't have any real interest in the current events, so am rather incapable of maintaining an argument - I have nothing of use to argue with, no facts and only that information that I see here (which is biased one way) and the snippets of what I hear on the news (which is biased the other way). I still care of the general opinion towards Russia to some extent, therefore I have to resort to these sort of drive-by arguments. >_>

[XXSockXX]

Everybody agrees that the pro-Russian forces are Russian, but whether they are ethnic Russian with Ukranian citizenship or of Russian nationality and how many of them aren't actually Ukranian citizens is the question here.

No it's really not.  It's been documented for a long time that people on the payroll of the Russian military are acting in eastern Ukraine.

But it hasn't been conclusively proven how far Russia is involved and - most importantly - it hasn't been admitted by Russia.
We have two competing narratives now:
The Ukrainian government says it's army is fighting terrorists, but is having a hard time because these terrorists are heavily armed, presumably with Russian equipment and support. They claim to have killed and arrested many pro-Russian fighters though.
The Russian government says the Ukrainian army and the Right Sector are attacking civilians with helicopters, which they consider a crime against the Ukrainian people.
As long as the Russian public continues to believe the latter one, we are getting dangerously close to war.

While the rebels still don't seem to have huge popular support, unrest is spreading to the South too, with protest in Odessa where one protester was killed.