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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[GrizzlyAdamz]

-A brief spat of googling later,
Seems like he's a cool human rights guy.
This is the closest I've found on his entry, which just says he was 'sent' back in february*.
http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140220/187727820/Putin-Offers-Ombudsman-as-Mediator-to-Ukraine.html

Lukin was the Russian observer in the negotiations between Yanukovych and the opposition, other than the EU diplomats, he didn't sign the agreement that was supposed to end the Maidan protests (before Yanuk left the country and all).
Presumably he has remained in Ukraine as a diplomatic envoy or observer.
He was Russia's human rights ombudsman, so yeah he is a human rights guy, at least in Putin's interpretation of human rights.

Well, "Some random guy in uniform with a gun" match my definition of soldier pretty well. :p

Actually, even if we assume that there are no Russian soldiers in disguise fighting in Ukraine, we can safely conclude that there are experienced veterans among the militias.

Aah, I see. The article I found was from the 20th, and Yanukovitch was evicted on the 22nd. Nifty.

[GlyphGryph]

I still care of the general opinion towards Russia to some extent, therefore I have to resort to these sort of drive-by arguments. >_>

Literally the only annoying part is that it's obvious they are drive-by arguments. It's just frustrating. I'll deal, though. If nothing else, it's probably a decent barometer for what standard "somewhat but not really informed" Russians are thinking, and that's valuable in its own way.

[mainiac]

I come in here usually to make an observation or a statement, more tossing fuel into a dying fire than anything

So you come to flamebait and then leave?

But it hasn't been conclusively proven how far Russia is involved and - most importantly - it hasn't been admitted by Russia.

No, it has been conclusively proven.  Ukraine has presented photographic evidence to the international community and the US State Department, among other organizations, has vouched for them.

We either have to conclude that Russia is lying or that a huge number of other nations are lying.  I'm going to believe the countries with freedom of speech over the party with a massive interest in distorting the truth.

[XXSockXX]

But it hasn't been conclusively proven how far Russia is involved and - most importantly - it hasn't been admitted by Russia.

No, it has been conclusively proven.  Ukraine has presented photographic evidence to the international community and the US State Department, among other organizations, has vouched for them.

We either have to conclude that Russia is lying or that a huge number of other nations are lying.  I'm going to believe the countries with freedom of speech over the party with a massive interest in distorting the truth.

Yeah, but the point is, what we believe or what the internatioal community thinks is irrelevant, as long as Russia sticks with it's narrative and as long as the Russian people believe that, we are very likely going to see a Russian intervention soon.

[mainiac]

Yeah, but the point is, what we believe or what the internatioal community thinks is irrelevant, as long as Russia sticks with it's narrative and as long as the Russian people believe that, we are very likely going to see a Russian intervention soon.

That's saying something very different.  Say what you mean to say the first time.

[XXSockXX]

Yeah, but the point is, what we believe or what the internatioal community thinks is irrelevant, as long as Russia sticks with it's narrative and as long as the Russian people believe that, we are very likely going to see a Russian intervention soon.

That's saying something very different.  Say what you mean to say the first time.

I did.
There is no conclusive evidence about how much support Russia exactly provides to the rebels and whether they are acting on orders from the Kremlin or not. I am convinced that Russia is involved in this, but how far is not really clear. Also the international community has not treated this as a military invasion so far, which it would if there was conclusive proof that the fighters are actually Russian military, so there is some uncertainty about this. (Not that it matters too much anyway, it's not like the UN security council is going to do something).

[smjjames]

Yeah, but the point is, what we believe or what the internatioal community thinks is irrelevant, as long as Russia sticks with it's narrative and as long as the Russian people believe that, we are very likely going to see a Russian intervention soon.

That's saying something very different.  Say what you mean to say the first time.

I did.
There is no conclusive evidence about how much support Russia exactly provides to the rebels and whether they are acting on orders from the Kremlin or not. I am convinced that Russia is involved in this, but how far is not really clear. Also the international community has not treated this as a military invasion so far, which it would if there was conclusive proof that the fighters are actually Russian military, so there is some uncertainty about this. (Not that it matters too much anyway, it's not like the UN security council is going to do something).

Yeah, the fog of war is pretty heavily in effect here, plus the fact that NATO allies are trying to avoid a war with Russia as much as possible.

Honestly, they need to stop with the weak sanctions and do tougher economic sanctions like the ones on Iran.

Edit: Speaking of the UN security council, Russia has called for a meeting of it. We all know that isn't going to go anywhere and all it takes is one veto to stop any security council action.

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_05_02/UN-Security-Council-meeting-on-Ukraine-called-by-Russia-3349/

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/emergency-ukraine-meeting-for-un-30239194.html

[Ukrainian Ranger]

While the rebels still don't seem to have huge popular support, unrest is spreading to the South too, with protest in Odessa where one protester was killed.

One person was killed by pro-Russian "protester" (likely from another region) by gunfire. Several more got gunshot wounds.

After that half of the city went on the streets to counter that.

If you ask were is local police

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Not on our side. At least part of it

[smjjames]

If Donetsk is just as divided as Odessa, then I could see problems happening whether the referendum succeeds or fails. I'd imagine that your military (at least those from or stationed in the east and south) might be similarily divided.

[Knit tie]

Just because they support Russia, it doesn't mean that people would like other people to get shot.

[Sean Mirrsen]

So you come to flamebait and then leave?

Well, for lack of a better term... I guess it could be seen that way. I don't do it out of malicious intent, I just want to shift the equilibrium in opinions that totals to painting my country in a bad light - not entirely unjustly, but still - and give it a bit more back-and-forth motion, so that someone who finds a resonating thought in my differing opinion might pick it up and support it, where I cannot.

All my arguments run on verisimilitude, that's kind of what I do. By its sheer nature, I cannot work with a situation like this - where a likeness of truth does not mean anything because any viewpoint has it to some degree, and only facts have value but they are impossible to come by. In this situation I would rather propose a contrary viewpoint that I believe to be objective and abstain from further argument, than engage in discussion with only empty words as my weapons.

Poking fun at the whole thing is fair game though.

[Zangi]

Well, when you consider it... with Sean Mirrsen's uninformed apathy to the whole situation.  You can probably expect a buncha Russians to be as uninformed.

Foreign Affairs that don't look like it is going to mess with your life?  Ignore and go on with own life: Y/N

[mainiac]

There is no conclusive evidence about how much support Russia exactly provides to the rebels and whether they are acting on orders from the Kremlin or not.

We do know they are acting on orders from the Kremlin.  Active members of the Russian military are participating in "militia" operations in eastern Ukraine at this time.  These same members did similar operations in South Ossetia.

We know Russian military is participating.  We have mountains of video and photo evidence of weapons clearly supplied by the Russian government (gun shops don't carry guide by wire anti-tank guns).  With the circumstantial evidence it's safe to say that Russian military forces are planning some "militia" operations but the natives are doing some independent activities.  What's left to know?  Who's doing the catering?

Poking fun at the whole thing is fair game though.

Or it could be seen as an insulting dismissal of the fact that your government is causing tons of harm to tens of millions of people.  If you want to discuss that's fine but it's very rude to flamebait and run.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

smjjames
While in army some problems with defectors may will exist that will not have that huge scale as among police.

Many times I said that Maydan  is an anti-police revolution first, Yanukovich GTFO second. And that revolution is not over. You can't even imagine how bad and how corrupt our police is.  And they don't want changes, they don't want them at all. Joining Russia, Yanukovich brought back, whatever else that will stop\halt the reform of police force will be supported for them. Thousands of them deserved to be jailed, many more deserve to be kicked out of police.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Or it could be seen as an insulting dismissal of the fact that your government is causing tons of harm to tens of millions of people.  If you want to discuss that's fine but it's very rude to flamebait and run.

Rude, yeah. But I can neither support my opinion effectively, nor leave it unstated. I'd rather be rude than unheard - the former at least leaves a slim chance of having the opinion considered.

As a general rule, or maybe as a rule of thumb - I don't know exactly which is more appropriate - I find it rudest to assume. I like being objective, when I can, and I find assumptions such as "there are Russian military forces in Ukraine" to be fairly rude to Russia as a whole. Weapons and equipment supplied by Russia? Quite obvious. Russia being the driving cause of this all, or standing to benefit the most from these events? Actually... not so much. It's definitely a large player here, but it's plainly obvious that these events are not quite going to be all that beneficial to Russia. Did Russia act spontaneously, or react? Was this a long-term plan, or a last-minute desperate gamble? With how little people as a whole actually know of what goes on between Russia and NATO, and how little of their attention - on either side - was on Crimea and Ukraine, there is no telling what events led up to the riots in Ukraine behind the scenes. Likewise, with how much effort is made by Russia to appear innocent of the whole affair, there is no evidence of Russian military being in Ukraine - whether or not they are there. Just as there is no evidence of, say, NATO military being there - whether or not they are there. Except if you see any man in military fatigues holding an AKM or an Igla, sitting on a barricade in Donetsk - you will just know he has to be from Russia, because that's your bias - despite the fact that he could be Ukrainian, or even NATO for all you know, and you'd never see a difference because it's not written on his forehead and he doesn't have military ID or insignia. That is the kind of assumption I want you people not to make. I don't mean to say that these are not, or can not be Russian - I just want people to not automatically assume these things, without actual proof.