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Author Topic: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread  (Read 309218 times)

martinuzz

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3570 on: March 22, 2014, 11:26:16 am »

Damnit, my PutinInc shares dropped again, and now I can't even sell them.
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KingBacon

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3571 on: March 22, 2014, 11:31:00 am »

Question, why didn't the Ukrainain's try to pull out war material from it's bases? Why didn't they mine the harbors?

I have read that the only land transportation routes into Crimea are through Ukraine, why don't Ukrainian officials prepare to blockade the peninsula? Are they afraid this might prompt further incursions?
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Dutchling

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3572 on: March 22, 2014, 11:32:08 am »

Pretty sure mining is against international law so I'm not sure they even have mines.
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Comrade P.

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3573 on: March 22, 2014, 11:34:10 am »

Russia may ban import of medical equipment as response to the western sanctions
Link in Russian

How many Russians will die  if that will happen? I guess it is another necessary sacrifice (c)

You know, I usually try to defend Russian political acts and turn them the good side front-wise, but this is really fucking horrible. Russian beraucrats are so Russian. "Let's do something!" "Yes!" "What gives foreign companies large profits and still is rather small buisness?" "Medical equipment!" "Let's ban it! I'll get to heal in EU in case!" "Yeah, me too! Let's do that!"
Fuckers.

I have read that the only land transportation routes into Crimea are through Ukraine, why don't Ukrainian officials prepare to blockade the peninsula? Are they afraid this might prompt further incursions?
Because Kerch. Russia has another access to Crimea, though the normal bridge over the strait is only about to be established in few years.

EDIT: And because blockading Crimea would mean they confess it is now a part of Russia. And they haven't officially confessed yet.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 11:37:23 am by Comrade P. »
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smjjames

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3574 on: March 22, 2014, 11:35:02 am »

Question, why didn't the Ukrainain's try to pull out war material from it's bases? Why didn't they mine the harbors?

I have read that the only land transportation routes into Crimea are through Ukraine, why don't Ukrainian officials prepare to blockade the peninsula? Are they afraid this might prompt further incursions?

They didn't mine the harbor because 1, it's a major shipping zone, and 2, they got surprise attacked by Russia.

I can't answer the part about war material and blockading the penninsula because I simply don't know.

Pretty sure mining is against international law so I'm not sure they even have mines.

I think that's just landmines? They got caught by surprise anyway and didn't even have time to place any, if they have seamines.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 11:36:50 am by smjjames »
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scrdest

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3575 on: March 22, 2014, 11:38:29 am »

Russia may ban import of medical equipment as response to the western sanctions
Link in Russian

How many Russians will die  if that will happen? I guess it is another necessary sacrifice (c)

You know, I usually try to defend Russian political acts and turn them the good side front-wise, but this is really fucking horrible. Russian beraucrats are so Russian. "Let's do something!" "Yes!" "What gives foreign companies large profits and still is rather small buisness?" "Medical equipment!" "Let's ban it! I'll get to heal in EU in case!" "Yeah, me too! Let's do that!"
Fuckers.

I have read that the only land transportation routes into Crimea are through Ukraine, why don't Ukrainian officials prepare to blockade the peninsula? Are they afraid this might prompt further incursions?
Because Kerch. Russia has another access to Crimea, though the normal bridge over the strait is only about to be established in few years.

EDIT: And because blockading Crimea would mean they confess it is now a part of Russia. And they haven't officially confessed yet.

Hmm, that would be poetic justice if, when they got sick, they would find themselves unable to go to EU because sanctions.
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Comrade P.

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3576 on: March 22, 2014, 11:39:27 am »


Hmm, that would be poetic justice if, when they got sick, they would find themselves unable to go to EU because sanctions.

Sure thing. But they can visit Israel in that case.
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Sigs

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smjjames

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3577 on: March 22, 2014, 11:40:56 am »


Hmm, that would be poetic justice if, when they got sick, they would find themselves unable to go to EU because sanctions.

Sure thing. But they can visit Israel in that case.

Not unless Israel sanctions them. I suppose they can always go to China, or Cuba.
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Comrade P.

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3578 on: March 22, 2014, 11:41:48 am »


Hmm, that would be poetic justice if, when they got sick, they would find themselves unable to go to EU because sanctions.

Sure thing. But they can visit Israel in that case.

Not unless Israel sanctions them. I suppose they can always go to China, or Cuba.

Well, yes. But you got the point, right?
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Sigs

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scrdest

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3579 on: March 22, 2014, 11:42:23 am »


Hmm, that would be poetic justice if, when they got sick, they would find themselves unable to go to EU because sanctions.

Sure thing. But they can visit Israel in that case.

Not unless Israel sanctions them. I suppose they can always go to China, or Cuba.

Maybe that's why Cuba has so much doctors, USSR used them as a medical treatment reserves :P
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smjjames

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3580 on: March 22, 2014, 11:46:32 am »


Hmm, that would be poetic justice if, when they got sick, they would find themselves unable to go to EU because sanctions.

Sure thing. But they can visit Israel in that case.

Not unless Israel sanctions them. I suppose they can always go to China, or Cuba.

Well, yes. But you got the point, right?

Yes I got the point. :)

Still going to hurt all those Russians who can't afford to travel to other countries for medical care.
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3581 on: March 22, 2014, 12:21:37 pm »

Not only would the interim gov get soooo ousted, they may be giving it away for nothing. Not to mention, you're assuming Russia's motives are /actually/ aligned with 'protecting ethnic russians'.
I am honestly rather amused by this. Russia can't even have an honestly morally sound basis for its actions without it seeming like a coverup for something anymore. :P Not claiming it's true, just observing - if Russia did have the interests of ethnic Russians abroad in mind first and foremost, it would still get the same treatment, because 'obviously they can't be doing that just for the people'. :)

Also, shortage of something = incentive to develop better ways to produce something. Cruel and effective. ^_^
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Beznogim

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3582 on: March 22, 2014, 12:49:47 pm »

Cheeetar
[citation needed]

It is general public opinion, really.
For example, this guy (also historian, and politologist) has called him several times an idiot, while analyzing in this blog. Careful, links in Russian!
And I could find a lot more stuff like that, if I wished.



Owlbread

So what historians do I have to quote for you to consider my arguments credible?
I can't really tell, it's just this one isn't the best choice, really.


I think that sounds a lot like a dodge. I heard them being described as subhuman monkeys. People who "aren't human". If you want to put that down to a non-racist, non-sectarian conflict of rural vs urban people hell mend you.
No, the attitude is really dependent on person's initial behavior. If that Caucasian doesn't assault you and acts like a normal, civilized person, then he is treated like a normal person. If the person behaves like a subhuman monkey, then he is a subhuman monkey.
Some Caucasians in terms of appearance are hardly distinguishable from Russians (Chechen leader, Kadyrov, for example) and can be identified only by behavior or accent. Some Caucasians, like Armenians, are tan-skinned, yet very close to Russians in terms of mentality. So, this is a very complex matter.

I guess, those who say stuff about monkeys are either a minority (like the neo-nazis in Germany, for example), or do not really mean it. There are a lot of mocking and insulting nicknames in Russia for many ethnicities and neighboring countries - Ukraine for example is called "Khokhlostan", yet those say it do not actually feel hate or prejudice.

Quote
First, I said, "almost". Second, genocide is a mass killing of an ethnic group. These people were offered: either resettlement within Russian empire, or resettlement into Turkey. Only a small part chose to remain in Russia - and this group exists still. No intentional killings - no genocide.

No intentional killings...

Quote from: Alexander Ohtov, President of the Federal National Cultural Autonomy of Russian Circassians
"Yes, I believe that the concept of genocide against the Circassians was justified. To understand why we are talking about the genocide, you have to look at history. During the Russian-Caucasian war, Russian generals not only expelled the Circassians, but also destroyed them physically. Not only killed them in combat but burned hundreds of villages with civilians. Spared neither children nor women nor the elderly. The entire fields of ripe crops were burned, the orchards cut down, so that the Circassians could not return to their habitations. A destruction of civilian population on a massive scale is it not a genocide?"

In the modern era it is still possible to find the bones of Circassian civilians in valleys in Krasnodar Krai lying out in the open, butchered by Russian soldiers.
Russian wiki mentions burning the crops and stealing cattle. The main goal was to drive people out, to demoralize them - not to slaughter them.
And yes, it is somewhat justifiable, considering the war lasts for 50 years and it is not Russians, who started it.

So that warrants deporting the entire nation to another country, killing tens of thousands in the process?
A comparatively small nation, that literally has a robber culture and preys on your caravans, on your people? The war started, because these people attacked Russian people - no one cared about them and their territories before that for centuries.
If people cannot be reasoned with and cause trouble, you do not humbly endure that, you do something. And their resettlement to a place, where they cannot cause trouble, was a reasonable measure.

So because a number of Vainakhs supported the German invaders (there was no Crimean Tatar support of any meaningful sort) in an alliance that was extremely shaky and basically collapsed within a few years because they both hated each other's guts, that warranted the deportation of 500 000 people? An entire nation? To the middle of the steppe? With no food or work or services?
Rural Vainakh villages are self-sustainable medieval-style villages. They do not work or have sophisticated services. Most North Caucasians do not work even now - a true mountain-person is supposed to take things from others by force - work is humiliation for them. Besides, what's wrong with the steppe? Kazhakhs live there, they don't complain.
And many Crimean Tatars were collaborating with Germans. Maybe it was too harsh to condemn the whole nation for that, but they had quite a bad reputation already. Also, it is a very small nation - 500 000 people is like 1/20 of Moscow.

This is just wonderful. I really hope Ukrainian Ranger reads this because you'd make the same argument about the Holodomor. "It was just an accident, we didn't mean to kill 200,000 on purpose... Who knew what would happen if we put hundreds of thousands of people in packed, uninsulated, unheated freight trucks and sent them 2000 miles into the desert/steppe?"
Since they embarked in a steppe, I would expect them to dig, find a water source for a well, grow some plump helmets, build some workplaces and surround their fortress with walls to withstand a goblin siege.

This is the response I always hear when I make reference to the Russian state's appalling actions. "Oh but it happened in the 90s - we don't talk about the 90s". Where do you think the guys that committed those atrocities and gave the orders are today?
It's not that "we don't talk about the 90s" - it is that the 90s are a really shitty time - a time of anarchy, economical collapse and territories falling apart. A geopolitical catastrophe. Whatever happened during that period - is a shameful part of our history, indeed.

The "foreign cultural nobility" of cultures considered useful to the establishment, like those you have repeatedly mentioned - Tatars and Bashkirs and my own mention the Ossetes.
Of course they must be useful. Geopolitics is not charity.

Fantastic. So the first Chechen War and the Second Chechen war had nothing to do with National Liberation or grievances about human rights abuses in the past, only foreign influence. Russia has never done anything wrong and outside forces are responsible for all your problems.
No, the Chechen Wars are our war against radical islamists. And radical islamism is bad, m'kay?


Ukrainian Ranger

Owlbread, That may be rude but... I suggest to stop wasting your time on a guy who has 25 posts over three years. Your arguments will not change his mindset and he is not a true Bay12er to care about his walls of text

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« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 12:51:58 pm by Beznogim »
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3583 on: March 22, 2014, 01:01:10 pm »

Before people start tearing Beznogim to shreds, I want to say that I'm curious: how would Great Britain, France or any European country react to a similar situation Russia ended up in before the Caucasian War with mountain people constantly causing trouble on their borders?

I don't think they would be more democratic and humane.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 01:06:59 pm by Guardian G.I. »
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread
« Reply #3584 on: March 22, 2014, 01:06:02 pm »

Quote
No, the attitude is really dependent on person's initial behavior. If that Caucasian doesn't assault you and acts like a normal, civilized person, then he is treated like a normal person. If the person behaves like a subhuman monkey, then he is a subhuman monkey.
If that would be an American racist he would say something like:

"No, the attitude is really dependent on person's initial behavior. If that Black doesn't assault you and acts like a normal, civilized person, then he is treated like a normal person. If the person behaves like a subhuman monkey, then he is a subhuman monkey."

Racists don't seem to understand that calling a person something like n***r or monkey for his behavior is unacceptable even if that person does act badly in a way the racist dislike
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 01:08:27 pm by Ukrainian Ranger »
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