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[XXSockXX]

Didn't read most of the thread so i couldn't spot it, but, did we talk how a lot of those anti-russia protesters are openly exhibiting neo-nazis symbols/slogans?

Yes, we did. The press here has been watching that very carefully. The prevalent opinion is: a) there are some very worrying elements among the protesters but  b) they are only a minority. Russian media seems to try to portray the events as a fascist revolution, but it is not. The people currently in charge and the majority of the population have nothing really in common with these people. They did provide a lot of assistance to the revolution, but so far their influence seems limited.

United States. We're pretty cool with England/the UK now, but raising an English flag without good reason will still raise some eyebrows.

The situations are not really comparable.

[10ebbor10]

Didn't read most of the thread so i couldn't spot it, but, did we talk how a lot of those anti-russia protesters are openly exhibiting neo-nazis symbols/slogans?

Yup, we passed that point already. It included a large semantic discussion on the use of the word Nazi (Conclusion: Don't) and finally ended with the conclusion that, IIRC, it's not at lot of people, but that they just appear to be in the spotlight all the time. Also, we had a little discussion on the origin of Svoboda and such.

Besides, the Anti Russian protests are already finished, it's pro-Russian protests now.

Comrade P. I did not mean to get gas to Europe, I meant to get gas to Ukraine to help them through the winter.

kaijyu, what's you're country again? I'd say Korea, but I'm probably wrong.

The EU has the capacity to supply Ukraine with gas. Modifying the pipelines isn't that hard. Problem is that natural gas is very important to the Ukrainian economy, not only for heating. Also, it's massively subsidized by both the government, and Russia.

The EU can guarantee supply for a few months, but not much longer. We don't have the reserves (I mean, we're importing from Russia, and it won't be long before they catch on the fact that we're selling it back to Ukraine) and the cost will be to high for Ukraine to take without restructuring of significant parts of the economy.

[kaijyuu]

United States. We're pretty cool with England/the UK now, but raising an English flag without good reason will still raise some eyebrows.

The situations are not really comparable.

Didn't say it was. Just mentioning that it gave me pause to see people raising Russian flags in a country that gained independence from Russia.

[XXSockXX]

Didn't say it was. Just mentioning that it gave me pause to see people raising Russian flags in a country that gained independence from Russia.

Well, they didn't gain independence from Russia. Crimea was made a part of Ukraine in the 50s, but that didn't mean a lot at the time since Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union back then, just like Russia. There are currently people seeking to reverse that decision and make Crimea a part of Russia, so no surprise with the flags here at all.

[Comrade P.]

Comrade P. I did not mean to get gas to Europe, I meant to get gas to Ukraine to help them through the winter.

Whoops. Misunderstood ya.
Well, pretty right. In fact, it is unbearable to depend on someone who can just shut the vent if you go against his will and still pretends to be your friend.

[scrdest]

Didn't read most of the thread so i couldn't spot it, but, did we talk how a lot of those anti-russia protesters are openly exhibiting neo-nazis symbols/slogans?

Several times.

[misko27]

Problem there is the Russian economy can't really afford to simply stop selling the EU oil: 50% of their revenues are oil, and it is to a extent far greater then the west the lifeblood of their economy.

Yanuckyvich might not want to come back though. A cache of files were found thrown into a lake near his estate. They are, damning. And publicly available (in Cyrillic). NY times article here.

[Chaoswizkid]

This shouldn't be a matter of "claims" though. The age of imperialism is supposed to be over.

I'm not talking about Imperialism. I know you're somewhat on the other side of the issue since you're very supportive of the UK being broken up, but as an American I wouldn't just sit by as the US crumbled into independent provinces or suddenly large swaths of territory became independent and governed by Native Americans. I'm cool with the federation that we're rocking, but I wouldn't be in favor of anything less.

Ukraine was 'owned' by a lot of different countries in the past, but prior to WW1 Russia had it for around 100 years. After WW1 it broke into a conglomerate of different states and was then divided between Poland and Russia which became the USSR. The USSR got it back briefly after dividing Poland between themselves and Germany before Germany invaded Russia.
Then WW2 ended and Ukraine's actual status from there on is debatable since it was a member of the USSR. So that's either around 150 years of it being a part of Russia or around 200 years of it being a part of Russia, when before it had never been more than a bunch of different territories that were just ethnically Ukrainian people.

That's what I mean by a claim. There's historical precedence that says "This is the land where Ukrainians live" and historical precedence that says "This was a part of Russian territory for one to two centuries." Only for part of the last century is it actually a place that Ukraine owns.

Then you've got a situation where part of the country doesn't like the other part at all to the point where chances of a violent civil war are still on the table. Given that that part is the part that Russia really cared about in the first place, and the people there apparently very warmly regard Russia, if Russia felt that it was in its interests to annex Crimea from Ukraine I could understand. I wouldn't like it, I wouldn't support it, but I wouldn't think they were just making shit up. Just like I wouldn't think that Ukraine would be making shit up by trying to hold onto a territory that no longer wants to be a part of it (if in fact that is the case and this isn't just a vocal minority or a group 'encouraged' by the Russian government).
Also, I'm not sure that we've talked about how Crimea has tried to become independent or a part of Russia to get away from Ukraine ever since the USSR dissolved in the early 90's.

So yeah, we're out of the Age of Imperialism, but we're not out of the Age of Centralized Power. We haven't gotten to the point where humanity will stop trying to kill itself, and until we are, or until we're closer than we are right now, it is in a country's interest to have a lot of territory and not break up into smaller sovereign states.

[Descan]

It always shocked me how... WELL the Restructuring of Eastern Europe ended up.

I really have no idea how it did, perhaps I'm wrong and it was a whole lot of shit and massacres that ended up having a lot of the Germans living in Germany instead of Poland or Bohemia. Shoving Poland west-ward is just the tip, but everything else too...

[10ebbor10]

Problem there is the Russian economy can't really afford to simply stop selling the EU oil: 50% of their revenues are oil, and it is to a extent far greater then the west the lifeblood of their economy.

Yanuckyvich might not want to come back though. A cache of files were found thrown into a lake near his estate. They are, damning. And publicly available (in Cyrillic). NY times article here.

They don't need to stop selling oil/gas. They can simply remove the cost cuts Ukraine gets. Should be enough to tip their economy over the edge.

perhaps relevant: Link

[Sheb]

Descan, there were a lot of massacre and stuff. But still it's wonderful how the Iron Fist of the USSR made everyone hates the Russians and forget to hate each other.

[scrdest]

It always shocked me how... WELL the Restructuring of Eastern Europe ended up.

I really have no idea how it did, perhaps I'm wrong and it was a whole lot of shit and massacres that ended up having a lot of the Germans living in Germany instead of Poland or Bohemia. Shoving Poland west-ward is just the tip, but everything else too...

Poland being moved was a bit of a mess. What basically happened was Germans were forcibly relocated westwards, and ethnic Poles from the pre-war eastern Poland (and everywhere else, really) were heavily encouraged to move to the new territories, meanwhile USSR annexed the eastern parts.

The main reason they did it? They wanted to create something for Poles and Germans to be pissed off at each other about, the idea being if they hate on each other they cannot hate on USSR.

[burningpet]

All i saw was one guy making this comments along a bizzare uniforms discussion. hardly a serious discussion.

so, svoboda aren't neo-nazis?

[MonkeyHead]

Regarding the current Crimean situation... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26380336

Russian military ship off shore. Checkpoints on all the roads leading to the rest of the Ukaraine. The Crimean PM stating he is in total control... This is looking more and more like Crimean nationalists or elements of them who want to forge close ties (if not rejoin) with Russia inviting Russian forces in to lend a hand with some kind of crazy internal security scheme prior to seccession or something similar. Lets hope they have not bitten off more than they can chew.

Edit, again from the BBC:

"MPs from a party in the Russian parliament, A Just Russia, intend to submit a bill making it easier for new territories to join the Russian Federation, Russian state TV reports."

Is it all falling into place yet?

[Sheb]

Russian military ship off shore is to be expected when the main Russian naval base in the region is in Crimea.