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Yes.

13 (72.2%)

No.

5 (27.8%)

Total Members Voted: 16

[lijacote]

Land claims in Civcraft don't work like real-life land ownership. It's more a case of stating that a certain area belongs to you, but people will only care about it if you have some ability to defend it. I've also never heard of claimants taxing people to live in their land.

Pretty sure that's actually how property and ownership works in real life too :p Your rights are backed by the state that enjoys either popular support or repressing its peoples.
>_>
flees

[tahujdt]

Alright, I, for one, vote to stay.
Since my requests were requested, I will post them:

• The removal of any and all foreign mercenaries from Dumathoin and the surrounding area.
• The assurance that said mercenaries should not return, should I re-enter the city.
• Permission to re-enter the city.
• Either a) that my gear be returned, or...
• b) that I be paid a sum of one-hundred and seventy-five(175) diamonds by GoldMiner in reparation for equipment lost to his mercenaries.
• This space left intentionally blank.
• That, regardless of my actions, every other member of the Bay12 group should be allowed to stay, should they so choose.

[Elephant Parade]

Alright, I, for one, vote to stay.
Since my requests were requested, I will post them:

• The removal of any and all foreign mercenaries from Dumathoin and the surrounding area.
• The assurance that said mercenaries should not return, should I re-enter the city.
• Permission to re-enter the city.
• Either a) that my gear be returned, or...
• b) that I be paid a sum of one-hundred and seventy-five(175) diamonds by GoldMiner in reparation for equipment lost to his mercenaries.
• This space left intentionally blank.
• That, regardless of my actions, every other member of the Bay12 group should be allowed to stay, should they so choose.

Goldminer, could you please respond to these requests?

[Baffler]

Who are all of these mercenaries? I only know of two, Indigo_ something or other and cobbleshit. Also sanwi I guess.

[Judge_Indigo]

       Since you speak my name, you apparently want me to chime in...Baffler is it? I don't even know you but that's okay, you clearly want to get to know me. One of which is already in place (not all of the Bay12 members are exiled). I'm from the real world where men (adults at least) can talk about things in person. Not hide their feelings with whispers or these said posts. Again, as "quoted" from before by Z...hell if I care what his name is (I'm not going to show respect to someone that doesn't show it to me) I'll just call you Z; it's not a Bay12 server, nor is it a Bay12 residence. The thought that it was ever Bay12's is sadly mistaken, only on your parts simply because you walked into a place (that wasn't yours), were given the keys to it (again, not by the owner), and you're just walking about fixing the place up (which is okay as long as it adheres to the simple rules). If you want to actually know the rules of Dumathoin you could just ask, I knew them from day 1. You don't build on or around the mountain as it's supposed to be hidden (this includes docks or even Dale as it was built too close to his border to start with and he had a problem with it from the start of its building), you don't go off the Dwarven theme which is understandable considering at least 99% is just that, and you work with others on projects so we all know what's going on (this mainly entails to speaking with Gold on how he feels about it as it's HIS place). He's welcoming anyone who wishes to stay and have fun, not stir up bickering and arguments, and that's how the game should be.
      You can take this post the wrong way, or you can actually reason and listen to someone that's willing to do the same. I've already chatted with Tahu before this incident came up and he was finally understanding and reasoning with me. BUT that was only with me, and while I can't attest to who said what, I'm not the one that holds the evidence. Just as well, I'm not claiming he was "bullied" into submitting said stuff. That's almost as bad of an excuse as "I was drunk"; you can still always be the bigger man and walk away from something, calmly talk to someone, or show your true colors and character. "Bay12 isn't welcome into Dumathoin". I'm quoting myself just to simply beat the whispering rats to it.   Before you get your feathers ruffled over that comment, note that it's BAY12 that isn't welcome. That doesn't mean everyone in Bay12, that doesn't mean you cant be a part of bay12 whilst in Dumathoin, it simply means the mere thought of having some "circles within circles" group, much like religion and politics isn't welcome in a bar, isn't welcome in Dumathoin because all it will do is cause this exact problem. You're all used to doing this early 90s gaming routine of chatting with one another through forums instead of the actual game. That's fine, but you could also join reddit and actually be active in those forums then, so everyone knows what's actually going on. Instead of saying/implying "you should post on our forums because that's what we like", you could work with someone that has EVERY right to deny that request. Here's a good scenario that's already happened; Z has a problem with what I say in game, and then skulks off to chat on here about it instead of in game. There's a chance he was just out of range before heading off, as I was scouting around outside of Dumathoin right after that, but I didn't hear anything after that comment related to what he stated on here about his mixed feelings and fears. But again, from my viewpoint it looks pretty bad on his part.
       Which brings me to the NEXT paragraph. If you have a problem with me, chat with me, get to know me, and see where I'm coming from. It's called showing respect to others which clearly isn't a trait amongst many here aside from a select few. You may see me as an aggressor but I'm entirely the opposite as I enjoy helping others (in real life or in game) and working things out. I WILL show you respect if it's shown to me. As stated before, I've dealt with Tahu in two ways...one was with my aggressive side (this due to the fact that I had no respect for him whatsoever after hearing Gold's side of the story on what was happening) the other with reasoning. Gold felt I should give him a chance, yes the evil and malicious Gold himself (as you call GM or goldminer), and even Tahu can attest that I can be talked to as long as it's not some childish viewpoint stirred up from rumors and slander. While he CAN attest to that doesn't mean he will, that's entirely up to him. Just know this, I have no reason to lie to anyone here and I have no intentions of causing dissent amongst this group as some would already assume by the time they've read this far. You don't have to trust "an outsider" like me if you don't want to, just as you don't have to stay/leave Dumathoin if you don't want to but if you have a problem with someone and you simply walk away to whisper about it, will that REALLY solve anything or would that more-so just start rumors? Think about it, that bad habit should've been erased from everyone by end of grade 6. It's time to grow up and start listening and reasoning with one another.
        I don't feel as though Gold has any right to be attacked as he is being, especially by someone such as Marc who we had nothing bad to say about from day one, but I guess we were wrong. Sure, he asked for "outside" help but as stated by Werdna in a post recently, you're all no less of an outsider than Sanwi is. Whether you accept that or not won't be the cause of MY demise. Simple communication IN GAME fixes this issue, if someone isn't on then sure use a forum, but I don't see why it HAS to be this one. I find it offensive that I should even chime into a bay12 forum as I've never even heard of Bay12 before now, nor am I a part of it. To IronyOwl, Gold isn't making you all "slaves" to work in his mountain, you don't HAVE to be here. Not that I see you in here anyways (as I can state for just about every single one of the posters in the last couple pages). Slaves, on the other hand, did have to be there and were killed if attempting to escape. You're as free to go as you were to come in. To those that have that "lets just leave" attitude, please do. Clearly you don't want to talk about it and work things out, so you're obviously not the material ANY good "Civ" needs. If you all just blindly follow the ignorant person in front of you as ants would, then tread carefully, for the way of ants shows you that they're the means to their own demise. Next time you think of even speaking my name, or any others name for that matter, you should get to know that person and hear them out first.
                                                                      -Sincerely the guy who just wrote you a fricken book...you're welcome. 

[Elephant Parade]

I'm going to hold a vote on whether we stay or go.

Actually, I'm first going to hold a vote on whether we should stay on this server.

[WillowLuman]

The advantage of a forum is that things once said are there for everyone to see, unless people use PMs. Reddit probably would be a better one for this since it's the one most civs use, though there'd need to be an r/Dumathoin subreddit to discuss stuff like security. However, since for several months the only people active in Dumathoin were a handful of Bay12ers, a thread here seemed sufficient. Though when the PvPers started their annual thing, it became a question of whether or not revealing Duma on the main subreddit would be a security risk.

I don't think you're being fair to those of us who want to leave, though. For me at least, staying just doesn't feel right. I didn't know of either Duma or Bay12's presence on the server at first. I arrived in June, guessing that the place had been founded by Bay12, but after a couple weeks I found out it had been founded by someone else, who seemed long gone. Bay12 also seemed long gone from the place, too, though: lots of empty houses everywhere, yet I only ever saw Marc an tahu on (and Remuthra once or twice).

I started seeing the uglier sides of people, and I started feeling like an intruder. And unwitting one, but intruding nonetheless. We're a close-knit group here. If we are to have a fortress of our own on this server, it should be one where we can have a thread about it here without leaving anyone out or forcing them to make an account here when they don't want to.

For me, I think the loner lifestyle is probably best. I don't have time to play much any more, so I'd probably not be of much help to whoever I stayed with. Maybe I'll be a hermit. Maybe I'll just bounce between the hobo shelters of the great cities and explore a bit.

[Graknorke]

What just happened.

[Orange Wizard]

Hello, Judge_Indigo, and thanks for coming.

Seeing as you're new here, I can forgive you for not having read the forum guidelines, specifically the part about not insulting other posters. I don't appreciate your tone, nor the general attitude that you're better than us.
Please don't go into this "I'm not respecting person X because he won't respect me" nonsense. Try respectfulness first.
You can be an adult (as you so proudly claim to be) and leave if that respect is not reciprocated.
Incidentally, I have not seen any disrespect shown to you thus far in this thread.
"Respect" doesn't sound like a word any more, actually. It's kind of funny.

Public Service Announcement
If you do not want other people to bicker and argue, please don't bicker and argue.

I'm typing this as things pop into my head, so it may seem somewhat disjointed.

We do not (nor have we ever) considered Civcraft to be a "Bay12 server". We do not (nor have we ever) considered Dumathoin to be a "Bay12" city. Except for that bit where Gold left it to Bay12ers for a few months.
Even then, it wasn't a private residence. You - and anyone else - would be free to come and join in. We wouldn't necessarily trust you immediately, but that's understandable... isn't it?

You're making us out to be the "bad guys", and I get that. That's absolutely reasonable from your perspective.
But please understand that from my perspective, there are no bad guys. Just two groups of people with very poor communication skills.

Anyway, why are you so disdainful? What do you have against this forum, and the people who use it?
Is it because of my big ears? It's my big ears, isn't it!
Well you know what? I can't help that! My big waxy ears are outside of my control!

...

Finally, a general message to everyone:

Please, for the love of waxy ears, stop talking about who is in the right and who is in the wrong.
That is a dark path, and does not belong on this thread. Feel free to PM myself or anyone else here if you wish to discuss it further.

I think it would be best if Bay12 left Dumathoin. Not because I "clearly don't want to talk about it", as Inidigo so kindly assumes.
I want Bay12 to leave Dumathoin because we are no longer welcome there. The reason doesn't matter. What does matter, however, is the fact that it is going to be much harder to make up with Indigo, Gold, and the others if we are squabbling over closet space at the same time.

I hope that we can make amends. I would love to visit Dumathoin in the future. I was also ninja'd by HugoLuman and Graknorke. I swear I'm not a slow typer.

[WillowLuman]

Speaking of moving, I found a lovely spot at 230,13450. Forest right next to ocean right next to ice mountains. And that's close enough we could still be neighbors.

[poketwo]

Speaking of moving, I found a lovely spot at 230,13450. Forest right next to ocean right next to ice mountains. And that's close enough we could still be neighbors.

can I come?

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

To Judge Indigo:  (4:38)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

       Since you speak my name, you apparently want me to chime in...Baffler is it? I don't even know you but that's okay, you clearly want to get to know me. One of which is already in place (not all of the Bay12 members are exiled). I'm from the real world where men (adults at least) can talk about things in person. Not hide their feelings with whispers or these said posts. Again, as "quoted" from before by Z...hell if I care what his name is (I'm not going to show respect to someone that doesn't show it to me)

On the Myers-Briggs, I was tested as having an introversion of 11, extroversion 1.  I today took a social anxiety test that scored out of 120.  I got a 110 on it.  I potentially have Asberger's syndrome.  It has taken me several minutes to figure out what to write here (as in, to this exact point), because I don't want to completely fuck up like I tend to do when having to chat over a short period of time.  Yes, I hide my feelings, because I am completely terrified of showing them.  Not everyone is the complete social butterfly you appear to prefer people to be.  (4:55)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'll just call you Z; it's not a Bay12 server, nor is it a Bay12 residence. The thought that it was ever Bay12's is sadly mistaken, only on your parts simply because you walked into a place (that wasn't yours), were given the keys to it (again, not by the owner), and you're just walking about fixing the place up (which is okay as long as it adheres to the simple rules). If you want to actually know the rules of Dumathoin you could just ask, I knew them from day 1. You don't build on or around the mountain as it's supposed to be hidden (this includes docks or even Dale as it was built too close to his border to start with and he had a problem with it from the start of its building), you don't go off the Dwarven theme which is understandable considering at least 99% is just that, and you work with others on projects so we all know what's going on (this mainly entails to speaking with Gold on how he feels about it as it's HIS place). He's welcoming anyone who wishes to stay and have fun, not stir up bickering and arguments, and that's how the game should be.

My complaints were not about that.  My complaint about the situation was that he had done it without warning anyone, despite the thread existing here, and he had brushed off ripping down someone's creation that none of us had built, with only the statement of, "It was on Dumathoin land", when that person likely wouldn't have known.  Just so that you know, a fair deal of the stuff out there was only discovered by us as having been abandoned.  They might only built there because they didn't think anyone was actually that far out, and they were on unused land.  In fact, they were members of FAGT/UIA when they built, who, at the time, had that land claimed, since there was no one out there to enforce Gold's claim.  (5:02)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

      You can take this post the wrong way, or you can actually reason and listen to someone that's willing to do the same. I've already chatted with Tahu before this incident came up and he was finally understanding and reasoning with me. BUT that was only with me, and while I can't attest to who said what, I'm not the one that holds the evidence. Just as well, I'm not claiming he was "bullied" into submitting said stuff. That's almost as bad of an excuse as "I was drunk"; you can still always be the bigger man and walk away from something, calmly talk to someone, or show your true colors and character. "Bay12 isn't welcome into Dumathoin". I'm quoting myself just to simply beat the whispering rats to it.   Before you get your feathers ruffled over that comment, note that it's BAY12 that isn't welcome. That doesn't mean everyone in Bay12, that doesn't mean you cant be a part of bay12 whilst in Dumathoin, it simply means the mere thought of having some "circles within circles" group, much like religion and politics isn't welcome in a bar, isn't welcome in Dumathoin because all it will do is cause this exact problem. You're all used to doing this early 90s gaming routine of chatting with one another through forums instead of the actual game. That's fine, but you could also join reddit and actually be active in those forums then, so everyone knows what's actually going on. Instead of saying/implying "you should post on our forums because that's what we like", you could work with someone that has EVERY right to deny that request. Here's a good scenario that's already happened; Z has a problem with what I say in game, and then skulks off to chat on here about it instead of in game. There's a chance he was just out of range before heading off, as I was scouting around outside of Dumathoin right after that, but I didn't hear anything after that comment related to what he stated on here about his mixed feelings and fears. But again, from my viewpoint it looks pretty bad on his part.

We were saying to post here because the majority of the citizens are already on the forums and not everyone has a Reddit presence, so it would just be easier for people to post on here for major discussions.  In addition, my fears were a topic that I wanted to call to attention to the Bay 12 members, so we could discuss how to go about talking with GoldMiner about this, a situation which primarily concerns us.  (5:09)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

       Which brings me to the NEXT paragraph. If you have a problem with me, chat with me, get to know me, and see where I'm coming from. It's called showing respect to others which clearly isn't a trait amongst many here aside from a select few. You may see me as an aggressor but I'm entirely the opposite as I enjoy helping others (in real life or in game) and working things out. I WILL show you respect if it's shown to me. As stated before, I've dealt with Tahu in two ways...one was with my aggressive side (this due to the fact that I had no respect for him whatsoever after hearing Gold's side of the story on what was happening) the other with reasoning. Gold felt I should give him a chance, yes the evil and malicious Gold himself (as you call GM or goldminer), and even Tahu can attest that I can be talked to as long as it's not some childish viewpoint stirred up from rumors and slander. While he CAN attest to that doesn't mean he will, that's entirely up to him. Just know this, I have no reason to lie to anyone here and I have no intentions of causing dissent amongst this group as some would already assume by the time they've read this far. You don't have to trust "an outsider" like me if you don't want to, just as you don't have to stay/leave Dumathoin if you don't want to but if you have a problem with someone and you simply walk away to whisper about it, will that REALLY solve anything or would that more-so just start rumors? Think about it, that bad habit should've been erased from everyone by end of grade 6. It's time to grow up and start listening and reasoning with one another.

It's not you that I had the problem with.  In addition, I am neutral in my view of GoldMiner.  I am, however, against the unwarned removal of structures, and when I tried to get an answer, it took me nearly half an hour to get a response as to what had happened.  (5:14)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

        I don't feel as though Gold has any right to be attacked as he is being, especially by someone such as Marc who we had nothing bad to say about from day one, but I guess we were wrong. Sure, he asked for "outside" help but as stated by Werdna in a post recently, you're all no less of an outsider than Sanwi is. Whether you accept that or not won't be the cause of MY demise. Simple communication IN GAME fixes this issue, if someone isn't on then sure use a forum, but I don't see why it HAS to be this one. I find it offensive that I should even chime into a bay12 forum as I've never even heard of Bay12 before now, nor am I a part of it. To IronyOwl, Gold isn't making you all "slaves" to work in his mountain, you don't HAVE to be here. Not that I see you in here anyways (as I can state for just about every single one of the posters in the last couple pages). Slaves, on the other hand, did have to be there and were killed if attempting to escape. You're as free to go as you were to come in. To those that have that "lets just leave" attitude, please do. Clearly you don't want to talk about it and work things out, so you're obviously not the material ANY good "Civ" needs. If you all just blindly follow the ignorant person in front of you as ants would, then tread carefully, for the way of ants shows you that they're the means to their own demise. Next time you think of even speaking my name, or any others name for that matter, you should get to know that person and hear them out first.
                                                                      -Sincerely the guy who just wrote you a fricken book...you're welcome. 

As this forum has several people from across the world, I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't seen half of them, especially when you include jobs that they are working.  Any communication in-game would exclude people, so, as said earlier, since a majority of people are already here, why not just use this thread.  (5:21)

Two final things I want to say:
First is about the general language of the writing, I find it interesting that within your posts are several things that could be viewed as thinly veiled insults, which you seem to speak of with disdain.  They may not have been intended that way, but it certainly appears to be that way.
Second, while another forum could be used, this place is the most welcoming I have seen, and the people here are much more kind as well.  Need a bit of proof?  Take a gander at the life Life Advice section way down on the lower boards.  While some of it is about more mundane stuff, there are threads where people pour out troubles that they don't, or can't, discuss with people in their lives, and they are greeted with a swarm of those willing to help them come to the solution to their problems.  That atmosphere really holds me here.  I've made maybe 20 posts on other forums, likely less.  Here I've made over...holy- nearly 6500?  When did that number get so big?  I thought it was around 5000...and I've already been on here roughly 101 days over nearly two and a half years?  Wow.  So yeah, there's also the fact that they might find something, if they just give it a chance. (5:42)

[Elephant Parade]

Poll is currently 5-0. I'm going to switch to Part II of the poll, now.

[Judge_Indigo]

To InsanityIncarnate;
 You're being a hypocrite and here's your evidence. (No that's not an insult, it's simply stating a fact that you're being one right now, that was your choice not mine).

I find it obnoxious that you feel I "assume" things, when you do just that. "
         "What do you have against this forum or the people who use it?" "I don't appreciate your tone nor the general attitude that you're better than us"
I don't have anything against anyone that uses this forum. I just don't feel I should be directed here for talking about things when its not a bay12 server or city. When I'm in the city and I'm told, oh you should check out the forums for Bay12, thats exactly what it seems to look like. Whether thats the intention or not of it. Then when I clearly stated I dont feel I should have to do just that, Z says he's worried for Bay12, so where you're coming from with this "its not bay12 mentality", z wasn't. You two are on the opposite page, not me.

When I "insult" others, when you do JUST that.
         "You can be an adult (as you so proudly claim to be)...", "You're making us out to be the "bad guys", and I get that."
First off, when did I claim I was or am proud to be an adult? I was telling others to act it, because I find it astounding how people like YOU can distort a simple disagreement with a personal attack against them. If you feel insulted then directly quote why you feel insulted so I can fix that problem, as I'm not here to insult anyone, I'm just stating my opinions and side of the story. If my side of the story offends you then there's a communication barrier. No you're not the "bad guys", as that's a broad statement I'd never use (again if you ACTUALLY got to know someone before passing judgement or assumptions you'd understand that, clearly you didn't actually READ everything that I posted and that's already frustrating me as I've covered that a few times in my last post). People that are being disrespectful, have bad attitudes, or are being malicious aren't bad people but they have bad habits that need to be changed or others won't ever be able to work with them...and if they can't do that then, like Hugo stated, its best to be a hermit.

When you agree with what I say, only to try and turn it around back to me as if its still a disagreeable statement.
"Please don't go into this "I'm not respecting person X because he won't respect me" nonsense. Try respectfulness first."
        It seems you at least DO understand some things I posted. Try respectfulness first was the moral of that story, unfortunately it slipped your mind that I was the one who posted that lesson, not you. I was disrespected in the fact that I stated my opinion and then that same person went on here to talk about things behind my back. That's disrespectful whether you agree it is or not, but I see Z posted something below and I'll read it and give him a chance to state his case on that matter...that doesn't pertain to you.

I've already seen a few hello's in game and that's nice to see...thats the attitude I have with the people that say hi, and thats the attitude I expect. If you didn't like my "tone" then you were interpreting it wrong. It was just my side of the story and how I felt, it wasn't a personal attack on anyone...it may of been a bit harsh towards Z but it infuriates me when people whisper behind my back when I'm a guy you can talk to. If you feel you can't then just try getting to know me, really I'm nice and I like helping out. If you need tools, or anything I may have (which I probably dont because I'm a noob and just putting everything into Dumathoin right now lol) I will gladly help out. I didn't get on to bicker, I got on to state my case. Love it or leave it, that makes no difference to me. I just want everyone to work things out and you're all welcome here unless you have those bad habits previously stated in this post. I do work with others though and I know personalities clash. Hi, I'm Indigo and I have an aggressive personality when it comes to defending others. That's my tone, and no that doesn't make me some hero or better than others...in fact that's what I strive to fix in people.

[tahujdt]

Who the hell is voting yes on leaving? I thought everyone here wanted to stay.