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[zombie urist]

Day 1 will end Friday, September 27th at 9 PM.

Votecount
Imp -
Squill - Rolepgeek
lukeinator -
Rolepgeek - Deathsword
kleril -
superblackcat -
Mr.Zero -
Deathsword - Imp
griffinpup -

No lynch -
Not voting - Squill, lukeinator, kleril, superblackcat, Mr.Zero, griffinpup

0 votes to extend. 4 needed to extend
0 votes to shorten 5 needed to shorten

Day 1 will end in about 9 hours.
griffinpup has been prodded.

[Imp]

I'll mention now that I'm willing to vote to extend.  I think I'm fine myself with the day ending as planned - but if people want more time to ask or to allow more time for answers, or chances to discuss something, I'd support that.

[Mr.Zero]

Extend please

[Imp]

Extend supported.

[Mr.Zero]

@Mr.Zero - You're asking awfully in depth questions for hypothetical scenarios. Are you trying to learn what someone would do if they were scum so you can fake it?

Hypothetical scenario's don't have a limit, they can be as big as you can think them up, though it can and will get tiresome for the questioned one to answer it. But the more you know about the thought process of a player, the more you'll be able to understand his/her reasoning. This can increase your judgment abilities as you will be able to pinpoint more precisely if the said player is scum or not.

@Rolepgeek

Strange sentence structure there. But the answer is no. ICs may be more experienced, but is is a learning game, and if the ICs are dead, they are less likely to talk, and give valuable information for later games.

Even if the IC's are dead, they should still be able to give advice. They don't magically vanish into thin air. So why do you trust them? Why aren't they potential targets considering the fact that they can be scum as well? Unless i misunderstood what you said.

@Blackcat

I see no point, and I won't ask questions unless there is a specific need for me to, that ties in to the game.

I find this a highly suspicious statement. Because if you are town then you are supposed to ask questions to uncover scum, if you are however scum... then there's no need to. Why are you in this defensive stance, something to hide? Why haven't you asked A single question? Why did you say This?, Why haven't you answered Kleril's question?

@Kleril
Even though you asked a little bit more than blackcat, you didn't actively pursue  this. Why so? Aren't you curious?

I'm not liking the way this is headed. At this point I'm thinking Imp MAY be suspicious, 'cause that vote seemed to be just going along with the bandwagon.

Which bandwagon? That was a pressure vote. You show up and say this one liner without any pressure behind it, why didn;t you pressure vote to get more information?

[Teneb]

Unvote

Imp

Deathsword:

Spoiler: Previous relevant questions and answers (click to show/hide)

@Deathsword:  One of the newbies makes a serious error on day one - an error so obvious (to experienced players) that the newbie's role is clearly exposed, but it is reasonable to think that the other new players may not recognize it.  How do you respond and why?

Imp: {Quote what you are answering. It takes little effort and helps a lot. People are not likely to search for whatever you are answering to.}

As for your question, I do not believe that there is any such thing as a confirmed player (role-wise). That said, if a person has done nothing scummy, then there is little reason to attack them. Of course, if they had been dropping tells and I was sure they were scum, they'd obviously be the focus of my efforts.

Just three posts later-

{Please, I cannot stress this enough: QUOTE. Press the quote button on the post you are answering to, delete the parts that are irrelevant to the answer. If you are answering more than one question, there is an insert quote button in the Post Reply screen that can add those posts to yours.}

Deathsword: I hear your IC advice, and appreciate it.  I hear, and hear strongly, how important this quoting is, and can see why, after just a handful of posts, it does indeed get hard to track back to who is answering what where and why.

Please explain why you answered my question without quoting me, disregarding your own advice.  Immediately before answering me you spoke of the need to quote who you answer, yet as a player yourself you immediately did not.  Gamewise, this quoting is so important that you felt the need to repost additional IC advice just three posts later.  Yet the two people who answered between your posts, all they did was do exactly what you had done instead of what you ICly said to do.  Do you see some value as a player in the confusion that not quoting when answering someone causes, which as an IC you must speak against?

Imp: I was, and am, posting from my phone (PFP). That is already painfully hard to  without quoting.

... I see, and sympathize.  I hope to help make this as easy as possible for you, especially considering your pains and afflictions.

Failure to quote seems to increase confusion, and inability or refusal to follow an IC's advice, especially strongly given advice, which that IC believes takes little effort and has said cannot be stressed enough - this is confusing to me, in addition to the confusion failing to quote creates.

I do not believe confusion serves our full community of robots, and thus deeply misdoubt that we are on the same team.  But I do hope for you a swift and painless end to your afflictions, both those known and those suspected.

Do you by any chance think that your malfunctions can be cured, or is destruction indeed the only viable option for you?

So, let me get this straight: you call me out that I was not quoting despite my adivce to do so. I explain that I was posting from a phone, and thus it was nearly-impossible to quote properly. So, because I was posting from a phone and due to that unable to follow my own advice, I am scum?

Not quoting may cause confusion, but never, at any point, with or without my IC voice, did I state that people didn't quote to cause confusion deliberately.

{Everyone, even scum, benefit from quoting. If you are town, it makes your arguments easier. If you are scum, people are more likely to believe your attempts to make someone else look bad.}

kleril

I'm not liking the way this is headed. At this point I'm thinking Imp MAY be suspicious, 'cause that vote seemed to be just going along with the bandwagon.

{One vote does not make a bandwagon. A bandwagon is a situation where a scum/lazy player votes someone just because everyone is doing that. I should note, however, that it is ok to agree with someone, but you may want to state your reasons to vote someone instead of some vague words (if any)}.

Now, tell me: if you are concerned, why are you not doing anything about it? Why just drop that one-liner and nothing else? That looks increasingly like lurking, which is of no benefit to the town.

{On lurking: lurking is the art of saying as little as you can to pass by unnoticed. This is obviously useless to the town, but scum can win this way. However, victory by lurking is the worst kind of victory, and I personally despise that. There also is active lurking. Active lurking is when, instead of posting as little as you can, you post a lot. Yet none of those posts include a single bit of content, consisting merely of useless fluff. Some players like to lynch lurkers first in order to get rid of someone that is not contributing to the game and of a potential source of confusion in the end-game.}

Superblackcat (SBC, if that is ok with you?)

@Deathsword, enlighten me. What is the point of asking questions such as: What is your first mafia game? or things along the lines

It was an RVS question. As I stated, the purpose of RVS is to get the game going and people posting. I personaly like questions like these because they allow me a "read" on a person, that is, said questions help me know how the player thinks. As an IC, it is also intresting to me to know what the new player thinks he/she learned last game.

Rolepgeek

@Deathsword - Do you think it's better to ask questions of everyone or just a few people? If so, how many?

{This question boils down to personal preference. There is no maximum or minimum number of people you need to ask RVS questions as long as you ask something to someone. Regarding non-RVS questions, you obviously should ask a greater number of questions to those you find scummy, but do not forget to question others as well.}

Imp

@Imp - Why do you think that an IC would use their IC powers to try and fool town?

Rolepgeek:  Oh, I don't.  Far as I understand, that would be breaking the rules as well - if it's not, please correct me, that would change how I think about the game.

As of now, I currently trust an IC voice in the game completely.  I am jaw-droppingly astonished that the person behind the IC voice who strongly instructed 'quote when you respond' is - not following that IC direction as a player.  Astonishing enough that I wondered why he would not do so, considering the length of his first PFP was quite long and very well worded, appearing to be something which he'd worked on for some time, and in general supports that he is an involved and intentioned player.

That first in-play post from Deathsword includes a length of strikethrough, use of color, even includes use of {} which are perhaps not conveniently placed characters to find on a phonepad.  If quoting when PFP is hard, well, there's no rush to answer; he could hold his replies for a more convienient time.

I had the time to spare (even though I was on a phone) for that first post. I also had written that little IC speech before, which certainly helps. While there was no real rush to answer via PFP, I know myself enough that I would probably either forgot or be too lazy to post later in that day thus the phone post. Also the phone pad allows me to do some pretty fancy stuff, word-wise. The problem with quoting is that it is impossible to delete stuff from within quotes or format them in any way without ending up with a mess.

It is possible that he has no convenient time ever, sure.  But just days before the game started Deathsword used a set of quotes in a post in this very thread -

IC in, seeing as you need one.

IC out

I'm starting a new job and am not entirely sure how much time I'll be having for a full on mafia game. I'll still be watching.

ZU, you seem to have missed those posts.

As you pointed out, these were before the game even started and I was at my PC (as I am now) during that.

@Rolepgeek

Strange sentence structure there. But the answer is no. ICs may be more experienced, but is is a learning game, and if the ICs are dead, they are less likely to talk, and give valuable information for later games.

Even if the IC's are dead, they should still be able to give advice. They don't magically vanish into thin air. So why do you trust them? Why aren't they potential targets considering the fact that they can be scum as well? Unless i misunderstood what you said.

{This is absolutely correct. A dead IC can, and must, still give advice. And ICs certainly can be scum as much as any other player. Not voting an IC because he/she is an IC or trusting them as a player is something that simply should not be done. Trust the IC voice, not the player.}


Mod: Could you reprod fellow IC griff before the day ends without any content from him?

Also extend

[zombie urist]

Day 1 extended to 9 PM PST, Tuesday October 1st.

[Imp]

@Deathsword:

Imp

Deathsword:

Spoiler: Previous relevant questions and answers (click to show/hide)

@Deathsword:  One of the newbies makes a serious error on day one - an error so obvious (to experienced players) that the newbie's role is clearly exposed, but it is reasonable to think that the other new players may not recognize it.  How do you respond and why?

Imp: {Quote what you are answering. It takes little effort and helps a lot. People are not likely to search for whatever you are answering to.}

As for your question, I do not believe that there is any such thing as a confirmed player (role-wise). That said, if a person has done nothing scummy, then there is little reason to attack them. Of course, if they had been dropping tells and I was sure they were scum, they'd obviously be the focus of my efforts.

Just three posts later-

{Please, I cannot stress this enough: QUOTE. Press the quote button on the post you are answering to, delete the parts that are irrelevant to the answer. If you are answering more than one question, there is an insert quote button in the Post Reply screen that can add those posts to yours.}

Deathsword: I hear your IC advice, and appreciate it.  I hear, and hear strongly, how important this quoting is, and can see why, after just a handful of posts, it does indeed get hard to track back to who is answering what where and why.

Please explain why you answered my question without quoting me, disregarding your own advice.  Immediately before answering me you spoke of the need to quote who you answer, yet as a player yourself you immediately did not.  Gamewise, this quoting is so important that you felt the need to repost additional IC advice just three posts later.  Yet the two people who answered between your posts, all they did was do exactly what you had done instead of what you ICly said to do.  Do you see some value as a player in the confusion that not quoting when answering someone causes, which as an IC you must speak against?

Imp: I was, and am, posting from my phone (PFP). That is already painfully hard to  without quoting.

... I see, and sympathize.  I hope to help make this as easy as possible for you, especially considering your pains and afflictions.

Failure to quote seems to increase confusion, and inability or refusal to follow an IC's advice, especially strongly given advice, which that IC believes takes little effort and has said cannot be stressed enough - this is confusing to me, in addition to the confusion failing to quote creates.

I do not believe confusion serves our full community of robots, and thus deeply misdoubt that we are on the same team.  But I do hope for you a swift and painless end to your afflictions, both those known and those suspected.

Do you by any chance think that your malfunctions can be cured, or is destruction indeed the only viable option for you?

So, let me get this straight: you call me out that I was not quoting despite my adivce to do so. I explain that I was posting from a phone, and thus it was nearly-impossible to quote properly. So, because I was posting from a phone and due to that unable to follow my own advice, I am scum?

Not quoting may cause confusion, but never, at any point, with or without my IC voice, did I state that people didn't quote to cause confusion deliberately.

{Everyone, even scum, benefit from quoting. If you are town, it makes your arguments easier. If you are scum, people are more likely to believe your attempts to make someone else look bad.}

Imp

@Imp - Why do you think that an IC would use their IC powers to try and fool town?

Rolepgeek:  Oh, I don't.  Far as I understand, that would be breaking the rules as well - if it's not, please correct me, that would change how I think about the game.

As of now, I currently trust an IC voice in the game completely.  I am jaw-droppingly astonished that the person behind the IC voice who strongly instructed 'quote when you respond' is - not following that IC direction as a player.  Astonishing enough that I wondered why he would not do so, considering the length of his first PFP was quite long and very well worded, appearing to be something which he'd worked on for some time, and in general supports that he is an involved and intentioned player.

That first in-play post from Deathsword includes a length of strikethrough, use of color, even includes use of {} which are perhaps not conveniently placed characters to find on a phonepad.  If quoting when PFP is hard, well, there's no rush to answer; he could hold his replies for a more convienient time.

I had the time to spare (even though I was on a phone) for that first post. I also had written that little IC speech before, which certainly helps. While there was no real rush to answer via PFP, I know myself enough that I would probably either forgot or be too lazy to post later in that day thus the phone post. Also the phone pad allows me to do some pretty fancy stuff, word-wise. The problem with quoting is that it is impossible to delete stuff from within quotes or format them in any way without ending up with a mess.

It is possible that he has no convenient time ever, sure.  But just days before the game started Deathsword used a set of quotes in a post in this very thread -

IC in, seeing as you need one.

IC out

I'm starting a new job and am not entirely sure how much time I'll be having for a full on mafia game. I'll still be watching.

ZU, you seem to have missed those posts.

As you pointed out, these were before the game even started and I was at my PC (as I am now) during that.

Deathsword, I appreciate your explanation, and I'd like you to help me understand your reasoning and thought processes better.  I'm going to refer to specific posts by letters and numbers, to help make it very clear what I am talking about.  I am calling your first post A, and each consecutive post that someone else made after that point as A1, A2, and so on - until your second post, which I'm calling B and using numbers.  In case this is confusing, or people wish to double check details, I'll link each letter or letter/number combination with the post it represents.

In A, your IC voice states to quote when answering, says it takes little effort and helps a lot.  Your player voice follows this use of IC voice, answering me without quoting, and without explanation as to why no quote was used.  Did you perceive a discrepancy in this at the time?

Other players post A1, without using quotes and A2, which does use quotes. You immediately respond with B, a pure IC voice post saying "Please, I cannot stress this enough: Quote."  You even explain how to use quotes, and how to use multiple quotes.

What were you thinking when you did this?  Also, what were you thinking about your own action of having not used quotes in your own answer as a player, and how this relates to your own advice as an IC?  It seems impossible to me that you could have been unaware of your own actions of inconsistency.  Post A1 did nothing but do what you did - and you followed it with the firmly worded post B - but you did not explain, as IC or as a player, why -you- were not doing what your IC voice said, -nor- did you correct as an IC your previous claim from A that "Quote ... takes little effort" to include that quoting sometimes does take a lot of effort, even so much that it's not reasonable to do at all.  Which, by the way, as your IC voice will never lie nor mislead - that claim of quoting taking little effort - must be true AND most especially must be true for you, because those words have to come from your own understanding and experiences with how quoting works and the effort it takes. 

In your post D, your words as a player directly contradict your words as an IC; as a player you refer to posting (by phone) as "painfully hard ... without quoting".  And in your post E, you say, again as a player. "The problem with quoting is that it is impossible to delete stuff from within quotes or format them in any way without ending up with a mess."  This directly contradicts your IC statement in A, where you said, "Quote what you are answering. It takes little effort".  I do believe your IC statement, completely.

Now, I don't have a problem with you as IC, with your IC voice, or with how you have used it.  I am not saying that you have spoken wrongly, at all, as an IC.  But you strike me as intelligent, and I do not think you could have been unaware of the discrepancy in your player words and actions.  And that inconsistency makes no sense to me.

I do not have a very strong feel of you as being Scum or not Scum.  But you feel 'not town' to me - and I have little way to interpret that except as your being Scum.  Please, help me understand and think as you think, how you could as a player feel comfortable and natural acting and speaking this way, without having felt any need to explain further, because these are really, blatantly obvious contradictions that fly in the face of assured truth.  If your player actions made sense, I believe I would feel far less of a 'not Town' vibe from you.  I sure hope you can help me understand and think as you think.

- And note, I am not asking you to step in as an IC and explain anything.  When you see fit to speak as an IC, do so.  I am talking -about- your IC voice sometimes in this, but my concerns are about your actions as a player, and I am talking -to- you as a player.  And if you provide an unsatisfactory player-level answer, I will treat it as an unsatisfactory player-level answer, even if it is accompanied by a perfectly correct IC-level response.

@Superblackcat:

Talk us through how you think a group of players should handle day 1 then?  Who would say what to whom and why?  I understand that you don't think questions without reasons are the way to go, so what should happen instead?  Do you think Mafia games should actually start with the night phase or something, so we all have a night kill to talk about, or what?

[Teneb]

-snip-

Imp, I tend to post from my desktop. Those initial posts were the first time I posted in a mafia game from a phone. As I said, I had written all that stuff down before, with the intention to post it via my desktop, where it is indeed easy to quote. I attempted to quote on the phone, but it ended an unreadable mess. Thus no quotes.

[Imp]

Thank you, Deathsword.  I find it fascinating that you do not answer my questions regarding your thoughts at the time, or your awareness and comfort with the clash between your words as IC and your words as a player, which you have chosen to disregard both at the time you made the actions, and later when directly questioned about the conflict.  You continue to feel exactly as non-Town to me now as you had before, and my vote continues to point at you, with increased suspicion because of your disregard of my requests that you explain your behavior.

Since you choose not to answer any of my recent specific questions, here's a couple more for you; perhaps you'll want to answer one or both of these.  Have you been an IC before?  Is it more challenging for you to be an IC as well as a player, then when you are only a player?

@Kleril:  When you asked this ...

@Mr.Zero: Those are some very... suggestively... phrased questions. Why are you trying to imply blame so early in the game?

... did you ask that question because suggestively phrased questions are out of place so early in the game (those were indeed the first questions asked once play began), or for some other reason?  If it's another reason, please explain, and if it is because such questions are out of place so early, would you please explain what's wrong with asking such?

@Rolepgeek:

@Squill - Do you think you'll stick around in this game as compared to last?

Your vote against Squill, was it random or do you have reasons you did not share yet?  If your vote was random, does that mean that as of when you voted, you had not observed anything that made you feel suspicious of anyone yet?

@Mr.Zero:

@IC's: Can the IC's be scum as well?

Considering that the answer was provided within this thread twice (OP, Deathsword's first post after game start), why did you ask this?  Were you hoping for an IC-voice answer or a player-voice answer from the ICs?

@Squill:

I'll make sure to do some questions at some point, but for now I'm just answering questions while I'm at my computer.

We've heard nothing from you in over 48 hours.  Are you actually interested and able to play?  If not, why have you not already requested a replacement, especially since we have one handy and apparently eager to get into his/her first game?

@Lukeinator

@Rolepgeek: What was your first game of mafia?

That's the last we've heard from you too, nearly a full 44 hours of silence from you since - yet you've been active on this forum and posting in other threads.  Are you bored with this game?  Anything we can do to make it more interesting for you?

@Superblackcat:

I have no specific questions for you at this time, but I am really, really interested in your answers to the questions others have been asking you.  I sure hope you start talking more.

[Squill]

@Squill - Do you think you'll stick around in this game as compared to last?

@Deathsword: That vote for me seems an awful lot like you are voting because of the previous game.
But yes, I do fully intend on sticking this game out.

@Squill:

I'll make sure to do some questions at some point, but for now I'm just answering questions while I'm at my computer.

We've heard nothing from you in over 48 hours.  Are you actually interested and able to play?  If not, why have you not already requested a replacement, especially since we have one handy and apparently eager to get into his/her first game?

@Imp: I am very interested in playing, but I still am not too confident in my skills at the game. Until I notice something that seems suspicious, I'm just going to try and avoid causing more confusion than is necessary.

[Squill]

@Squill - Do you think you'll stick around in this game as compared to last?

@Deathsword: That vote for me seems an awful lot like you are voting because of the previous game.
But yes, I do fully intend on sticking this game out.

Goddammit. Disregard that "@Deathsword." That should read @Rolepgeek.

[kleril]

I'm not liking the way this is headed. At this point I'm thinking Imp MAY be suspicious, 'cause that vote seemed to be just going along with the bandwagon.

Kleril:  What bandwagon does my vote seem to be going along with?

You're coming after Deathsword after a pressure vote. Rule of thumb the person following that is scum. Imp has my vote.

@Kleril:  When you asked this ...

@Mr.Zero: Those are some very... suggestively... phrased questions. Why are you trying to imply blame so early in the game?

... did you ask that question because suggestively phrased questions are out of place so early in the game (those were indeed the first questions asked once play began), or for some other reason?  If it's another reason, please explain, and if it is because such questions are out of place so early, would you please explain what's wrong with asking such?

They seemed to be setting the stage for who we should be keeping a close eye on, which seems like a great early scum play, to place long-term pressure on a handful of individuals other than yourself.

[Lukeinator]

@Lukeinator

@Rolepgeek: What was your first game of mafia?

That's the last we've heard from you too, nearly a full 44 hours of silence from you since - yet you've been active on this forum and posting in other threads.  Are you bored with this game?  Anything we can do to make it more interesting for you?

@Imp
No, I just have no Idea what to ask.

[Superblackcat]

I'm sorry for how I have replied less... I have school daily, and can only get on a certain time.

However

@all, Could you guys enlighten me what the colors mean? I have never played mafia here before, and I am unfamiliar with the habits.

@MrZero, Why do you find that suspicious? It is how I play the game, and I ask questions that have to do with scumhunting, I don't ask questions that I find many of you guys asking, at least day one, about Meta. I know this seems like OMGUS, however, It seems like you are just trying to pin suspicion on everyone else but you, I recall a post about how you were asking how others would act if they were mafia. I may have messed up the person, and please correct me if I did... However, you seem to be trying to point fingers all over the table. FOS

@Death, Thanks for the answer. If you guys treat day one as kind of like a pre-game, I understand... However, I seem I put my suspicions wrongly, as everyone is asking questions completely related to the game.

@Imp, Sorry for the late reply, What does the blue mean? Also, I mostly play standard mafia setup with night start. I've played a lot of Epicmafia, and if any of you guys are familiar with how those games are run.... Well they are quite different from forum mafia. I have played forum mafia on another forum, Though it was not structured like this. I do prefer a Night Start, But the smart thing to do on d1 with night start and a 7/2 is NL, and that happens everytime.

@Luke, Who do you FOS?

@Mods, Are we allowed to edit?

I currently FOS MrZero the most... However, I am getting a lot of WIFOM. (In my brain)




@All Could everyone list out their top FOSes (If you have more than one as of now) and top TOWNies (If you have more than one)