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[Griffionday]

Finished my read and willing to be a replacement.  Not that I've any clue what's going on...

*sigh* time to re-read.

[Lenglon]

Griffinpup: It wasn't a threat. I just wanted to have the information to make my pick better. Why would you withhold information from the town?

Again, answering that question kinda defeats the purpose of withholding the information in the first place.  I have made a decision to present my case today or tomorrow, however, so you won't have to wait long.  Also, not telling you information isn't withholding it from the town.

What if I say I'm interested in knowing it?

I'd probably say bug off?  Purely hypothetically, of course.

oh bugger, I see it too. you have 16 hours from this post to explain why I shouldn't link everyone to it, because it fingers one of the scum, and I don't understand why you're withholding information. the damage has been done already.

Tiruin: I finished my read and somehow you are coming across as having more... Malice? Aggression? Hunger? It's hard for me to phrase this right, but you emotionally feel more like a predator than a protector like you usually do. why is that?

GriffPup: in the most recent BM there was a very long discussion of the logical falicies inherent in a "one of these two is scum but not both" argument. yet you've been using such an argument regarding NQT and Nerjin, and you were in that BM. Justify this please.

"Dariush-Onisan! I'm so glad you're here and ok! I've worried about you! You still being a big ol' grufflewhup? need a hug? want a hug? or here, let me be clear, YOU'RE GETTING A HUG NAOW!"
Lenglon charges at and attempts to tackle-hug Dariush with a gleeful, maniacal grin spread across her face, hands held up in front of her like claws.

[Tiruin]

PFP

Lenglon

Tiruin: why did you downvote the first two teams, but upvote a team containing both NQT and GriffPup when they were both on the team that was sabotaged?

Restating from memory, I downvoted the first team on grounds of random variable. That, and that no conversation was made was quite a nebulous notion to vote for the team. There was a lack of communication, one which I didn't expect people would do given the crucial state of M1. It is the root of most arguments that would happen.

ok, skimmed the thread, still low on detail though, I don't have an emotional read on anyone yet, nor an evaluation of how anyone thinks. I'll try to get a bit farther with that tomorrow, but I have to sleep soon.

GriffPup: what part of "I haven't read the thread so I can't answer your question yet, but I will once I have." is a deflection?

now then, to explain past Me's actions:

Week 1 Team: NQT, Griffpup, Nerjin -> Success.
Week 2 Team: NQT, Griffpup, Nerjin, Past Me -> Fail.

if you make the foolish assumption that spies will sabotage every mission they're on, then this sequence of events marks past me as a spy. that assumption is wrong, but apparently when past me saw this happen, rather than actually try to handle it, she simply freaked out and gave up.

I would like to point out that such a reaction is actually a mark of town. if you assume that Past Me is a spy, then past me chose to sabotage the mission, singleing herself out for suspicion, and then broke down and fell apart under the lightest of pressure. If past me was a spy, then somehow Past Me was unprepared for suspicion, despite actively choosing to draw it to herself. a true spy would either have a defense ready or have not sabotaged the mission at all.

I only see how WIFOM comes peripherally into play in this situation. the only WIFOM involved was for the spy on the first team who chose to not sabotage the mission on week 1. even then, it doesn't apply very well.

I poke you along the lines of that reaction, because that mirrors what I also thought. It was strange to see the sudden shift of nature, however. Going from a detailed explanation to having a frog down your throat at the slightest of instances.

Especially when an instance took the form of a hypothetical question. When hypothetical pertains to 'something to think about.'

Why I was really leaning scum there was because of the notion that a rebel would defend himself--while Rem did by handwaving (yes, I saw it as rude handwaving >.>) the details, he didn't say anything else. And then shut up, and posted about the game in other threads...Yeah that still leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Anyway, may I ask you to give your read on the remaining people present given that the arguments I had were mostly on reaction-basis?

Tiruin: I finished my read and somehow you are coming across as having more... Malice? Aggression? Hunger? It's hard for me to phrase this right, but you emotionally feel more like a predator than a protector like you usually do. why is that?

Mmm :/
I felt the same upon reading my posts addressed to Rem, something I regret. Disregarding role, he's quite new and that was my form of being irritated at his playstyle. Restating: the game is about communication and not holistically Mafia, but having the aspects of Mafia.

And I think the term is assertive-aggressive?

"Dariush-Onisan! I'm so glad you're here and ok! I've worried about you! You still being a big ol' grufflewhup? need a hug? want a hug? or here, let me be clear, YOU'RE GETTING A HUG NAOW!"
Lenglon charges at and attempts to tackle-hug Dariush with a gleeful, maniacal grin spread across her face, hands held up in front of her like claws.

"This is the rebelio- Oh fine you can hug him. Nothing addressed to someone you missed, though?"

[Nerjin]

"Dariush-Onisan! I'm so glad you're here and ok! I've worried about you! You still being a big ol' grufflewhup? need a hug? want a hug? or here, let me be clear, YOU'RE GETTING A HUG NAOW!"
Lenglon charges at and attempts to tackle-hug Dariush with a gleeful, maniacal grin spread across her face, hands held up in front of her like claws.

"Uh kiddo, he's been shot... Sorry about that again by the way... But anyway he's probably still in pain. So uh... Just be careful y'know?"

[Nerjin]

Griffinpup: It wasn't a threat. I just wanted to have the information to make my pick better. Why would you withhold information from the town?

Again, answering that question kinda defeats the purpose of withholding the information in the first place.  I have made a decision to present my case today or tomorrow, however, so you won't have to wait long.  Also, not telling you information isn't withholding it from the town.

Except that what you are doing is the very definition of with-holding information from town.

Lenglon:
How will being confirmed scum change your play?
Why did you react so strangely to being on a losing mission?
Why did you throw around WIFOM as if it would automatically save you, but never explain why?
And all the other question I've asked you over the game.

WIFOM and it's impossible for him to answer these. He isn't Remuthra so those aren't really questions he can answer. It's nice to see that you're bussing so effectively though.

... f you make the foolish assumption that spies will sabotage every mission they're on, then this sequence of events marks past me as a spy. that assumption is wrong, but apparently when past me saw this happen, rather than actually try to handle it, she simply freaked out and gave up.

I would like to point out that such a reaction is actually a mark of town. if you assume that Past Me is a spy, then past me chose to sabotage the mission, singleing herself out for suspicion, and then broke down and fell apart under the lightest of pressure. If past me was a spy, then somehow Past Me was unprepared for suspicion, despite actively choosing to draw it to herself. a true spy would either have a defense ready or have not sabotaged the mission at all.

Firstly: Welcome to the game kiddo. It's nice to see you've grown up since High School and are ready to fight the good fight. Alright enough flavor.

Now while it IS true that spies won't try to sabotage every mission [Mission 4 in particular] freaking out under pressure is NOT a town reaction ESPECIALLY when there is such little pressure to bow to. While town MIGHT make that mistake the sheer volume of Rem's panic would only likely happen as spy. That paired with their other behavior makes me certain that they [and you] are spy. You'd have to do some PRETTY spectacular work to convince me otherwise. To address the issue a little more: I think Rem psyched themselves out when they started going to defend against the avalanche of WIFOM they expected that never came. While doing so she just sorta gave up because after reacting like that there was no way that people wouldn't be suspcious.

Lenglon and GriffDay: What are you reads on EVERYONE please be concise but as detailed as possible.


[[Sorry for the double post. The above was SUPPOSED to be here. My bad.]

[birdy51]

Finished my read and willing to be a replacement.  Not that I've any clue what's going on...

*sigh* time to re-read.

Thank you my good man! I hope you have fun. A role PM will be coming shortly.

You shall be replacing Shinigami King!


TheWetSheep

Now that the two players have been replaced, you may proceed to the vote whenever you feel you have enough information.

A team must be locked in by Tuesday, July 16th at 10PM ET.

[Lenglon]

Lenglon

Tiruin: why did you downvote the first two teams, but upvote a team containing both NQT and GriffPup when they were both on the team that was sabotaged?

Restating from memory, I downvoted the first team on grounds of random variable. That, and that no conversation was made was quite a nebulous notion to vote for the team. There was a lack of communication, one which I didn't expect people would do given the crucial state of M1. It is the root of most arguments that would happen.

Tiruin: could you please finish answering this question? You answered why you downvoted week 1, but I wanted to know why you upvoted a team with both NQT and GriffPup after having downvoted both previous teams.

Anyway, may I ask you to give your read on the remaining people present given that the arguments I had were mostly on reaction-basis?

Lenglon and GriffDay: What are you reads on EVERYONE please be concise but as detailed as possible.

Nothing addressed to someone you missed, though?"

Shinigami/Griffday - probably a Rebel, nothing suspicious of signifigance
Ranger/Sheep - probably a Rebel, nothing suspicious of signifigance
NQT - Spy, Pup still has 8 hours to explain before I make a case on him.
Tiruin - likely Spy, suspicious vote pattern + unusual emotional read
Dariush - possible Spy, seemed to know the week 2 team was going to be sabotaged before it happened.
Nerjin - possible Rebel, was on the failed team, but is giving off a Rebel vibe.
GriffPup - possible Rebel, he's consistantly taken an aggressive stance, and his tactics have been pretty upfront and made sense quote consistantly. however I really want an explanation for why he's withholding information. I saw it too, and I still don't understand why it should be hidden. the damage is done already.

Now while it IS true that spies won't try to sabotage every mission [Mission 4 in particular] freaking out under pressure is NOT a town reaction ESPECIALLY when there is such little pressure to bow to. While town MIGHT make that mistake the sheer volume of Rem's panic would only likely happen as spy. That paired with their other behavior makes me certain that they [and you] are spy. You'd have to do some PRETTY spectacular work to convince me otherwise. To address the issue a little more: I think Rem psyched themselves out when they started going to defend against the avalanche of WIFOM they expected that never came. While doing so she just sorta gave up because after reacting like that there was no way that people wouldn't be suspcious.

The explanation I gave is honestly the best one I have for Past Me's actions. All I know is that Past Me was a true rebel, and somehow reacted the way she did as such. There really isn't anything else I can say on the matter, since Past Me isn't, well, me.

[TheWetSheep]

Tiruin:

I'm definitely not putting Remuthra on the team. Why do you think I would?

You never said a definitive on that.

2. Why would it implicate Dariush?

Because Remuthra tried to get Dariush onto the team instead of him.

Here we go again with the total evasion. Let's just give the idea without why it would implicate the person, shall we?

Where did he explicitly do this?

I already said why it would implicate Dariush. If Remuthra was a spy and he was trying to get Dariush onto the team instead of him, and there weren't spies on the team already, then it looks like Remuthra was trying to get a more experienced scum onto the team.

I was typing out a reply when I realized something: Remuthra thought that Dariush was on the first mission. He also thought they should send the same team on the second mission, so it looks like he thought that the first mission was Dariush, NQT, Nerjin and Griffinpup. Four people. Would he make that much of a mistake if Dariush was his scumbuddy? I don't know.

But to answer your question, here.

First: Did you see the reasons he's given? Why aren't you poking that?

Because he won't respond to me if I do.

"If."

"Won't." > Will Not.

Future tense + possibility = good reasoning on why?

I beg to disagree.

Uh, he wasn't posting and was up for replacement. Sure, he said he'd post, but in reality he didn't.

Or are you following up a total blank which didn't even expound anything but throw out an assumption?

I don't understand.

Are you reading or are you just leaving your own confusion in the trail without expounding on what you don't understand, hm?

I'm reading. I didn't understand how that link related. I just can't get what you're trying to say.

Second: Looking less likely how?

The mission only had one fail, so it's unlikely that there were two spies on it unless they communicated, and I haven't seen any of that. Unless...

The ellipsis denotes intentional omission.

Why are you omitting things, or making them into a run-on?

The following questions after that aren't even adding to whatever speculation I can derive from that Unless... there.

I was melding it into my question to Griffinpup, which was about his theory of communication. I meant "unless Griffinpup is going to show us some communication".

Griffinpup: Why are you asking Lenglon questions she obviously can't answer and then calling her scum for deflecting?

Lenglon:

Sheep: Like I said, I've only skimmed the thread, so you might have already answered this, but why did you vote down the team that failed week 2?

I didn't trust Dariush or his team, and his team was on that mission. I had a null read on Remuthra.

[griffinpup]

First:
Spies have incentive to only have one member on a team.  If spies can't communicate, and have two members on a team, they run the risk of double sabotaging.  Even if spies have found a system of deciding who sabotages, it's better to have one person on a suspected team then two people or even three people on a suspected team. 
Second:

Dariush to me is a bit too much of a risk factor due to the questionable method of random picking, but if everyone would prefer him to Remuthra I'll put him forward.  We've actually got a serious advantage over the spies in this game: unlike last time where the spies were able to confer beforehand, the spies in this game have no way of communicating to each other. They essentially have no way of ensuring that only one of them fails the mission (if I recall correctly, the spies in the last game agreed for the alphabetically first spy to fail each mission when they doubled up)[/b] and we can use this to our advantage if, and this is likely, the spies in future missions panic and double or triple vote.

The pertinent part is bolded and made huge.

[griffinpup]

Oops.  Post before preview.  Refrain from commenting until I POST THE REST!!!

[Lenglon]

pup, it's been several hours, you going to finish or not?

[TheWetSheep]

Eh. I think I know part of what he's going to say, so I'll say it: The spies in the last game didn't use alphabetical order. Leafsnail made his own order.

[Griffionday]

So I've been running some probabilities and to get a feel for the accuracy of the assumptions I'm making in my calculations I'd like to conduct a bit a poll:

Everyone: If you were a spy would you have lain low D1?

Nerjin:

Lenglon and GriffDay: What are you reads on EVERYONE please be concise but as detailed as possible.

May I wait to see the results of my poll first? 

[Lenglon]

So I've been running some probabilities and to get a feel for the accuracy of the assumptions I'm making in my calculations I'd like to conduct a bit a poll:

Everyone: If you were a spy would you have lain low D1?

yes, too small of a pool of players to hide in if you did sabotage it, and it's a great chance to make yourself look more like a true-hearted-rebel by being on a successful mission.

[griffinpup]

NQT talks about the biggest advantage the rebels have in this game.  The inability for the spy team to know which of it's members will sabotage a particular mission.  Realizing that solving this problem would help his team greatly, NQT attempted to communicate with his spymates about this very issue.  He sublty told his allies that the person that comes first in the alphabet is to sabotage.  In my opinion, such a blatantly obvious attempt to communicate makes is quite obvious that NQT is, in fact, a spy.  Upon careful deliberation, I could find no reason for the rebels to include such a detail in their posts.
Nerjin:
After such a blatant attempt of communication by NQT, you immediately reply this:

I don't think that's how it was but it's not really important.

It's not important?  You obviously read NQT's attempt of communication, you even caught the lie in it, but you immediately dismiss it as not important and don't even question the possibility of him attempting to communicate.  Why?
Lenglon:
I hate Remuthra...
GriffionDay:
Shinigami said that he'd upvote my team.  Turns out he never voted, either way.  Would you of upvoted ro downvoted my team? 
TheWetSheep:
Do you have any complaints about Dairiush's play AFTER DAY ONE?

BAH
I would of made a real case, but today has been surprisingly busy with RL.  Ah well, I got a bit of content out.

pup, it's been several hours, you going to finish or not?

No, I've decided to quit this game and never post again.

GriffPup: in the most recent BM there was a very long discussion of the logical falicies inherent in a "one of these two is scum but not both" argument. yet you've been using such an argument regarding NQT and Nerjin, and you were in that BM. Justify this please.

Well...  This is in no way vanilla or standard mafia.  Here it is logical to have a one or the other argument.  Let's say you're on mission one, a rebel, and there's a sabotage attempt.  One of the other people have to be a spy, correct?  In this situation it would be acceptable to take a "one of these two is scum" approach.

Griffinpup: Why are you asking Lenglon questions she obviously can't answer and then calling her scum for deflecting?

To see how (she?) responds.

So I've been running some probabilities and to get a feel for the accuracy of the assumptions I'm making in my calculations I'd like to conduct a bit a poll:

Everyone: If you were a spy would you have lain low D1?

yes, too small of a pool of players to hide in if you did sabotage it, and it's a great chance to make yourself look more like a true-hearted-rebel by being on a successful mission.

+1.  Pretty much what I was gonna say.