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[DWC]

Hope it all turns out well. Non-secular governments should never be tolerated.

Non-secular is irritating, but not really the primary issue here, it seems like. Being secular isn't really a defense against or justification for having puppet news stations or brutal police crackdowns, for instance.

Not all oppressive governments are non-secular, but all non-secular governments are oppressive.

Anyways, Turkey still has a tradition of democratic secularism. Ataturk was a secularist and the founder of modern Turkey, they should follow in his example, not taking after their neighbors to the east.

[Owlbread]

So you consider the British government oppressive, DWC?

[Foamybeard]

Be safe, Leatra!

I'm probably going to be the ONLY person saying this, but honestly, It needs to be said...

I seriously hope this is a real case of democracy springing up, and isn't like the various other revolutions that happened under the guise of the Arab Spring.

[misko27]

So you consider the British government oppressive, DWC?

This, my friends, is a loaded question in it's natural habitat.

But he has a point. They are headed by the Queen, who is in turn the head of the Church of England.

Be safe, Leatra!

I'm probably going to be the ONLY person saying this, but honestly, It needs to be said...

I seriously hope this is a real case of democracy springing up, and isn't like the various other revolutions that happened under the guise of the Arab Spring.

They are protesting against a religious Leader

[SalmonGod]

This is one of those moments where all I have to say is I love the internet.

[werty892]

Hmm. Wow. I heard about this on the news... but wow.

[DWC]

So you consider the British government oppressive, DWC?

The UK probably doesn't qualify as non-secular, although it nominally has an official religion. The links between church and state are mostly ceremonial formalities that have little or no impact on the governance there.

That said, the UK is a nanny state with plenty of restrictions on individual freedom. I wouldn't want to live there.

[Max White]

Guys if you want to debate the secular status of Britain and its implications, I'm pretty sure that would fit in the multicultural thread.

[Foamybeard]

So you consider the British government oppressive, DWC?

This, my friends, is a loaded question in it's natural habitat.

But he has a point. They are headed by the Queen, who is in turn the head of the Church of England.

Be safe, Leatra!

I'm probably going to be the ONLY person saying this, but honestly, It needs to be said...

I seriously hope this is a real case of democracy springing up, and isn't like the various other revolutions that happened under the guise of the Arab Spring.

They are protesting against a religious Leader

Honestly, while I'm hoping for the best, I've honestly given up expecting things to turn out well.

Like, ya know, Libya. Over through a Dictator, and then put up members of Islamic extremist groups as their new leaders. Or, Egypt, that now has a leader who has called for the destruction of Israel multiple times in the past.

I'm just saying, I hope this one turns out better.

[FearfulJesuit]

I wonder how long it'll take for Erdoğan to crack. The third day of protests starts now...He can't start calling in the army (for one thing, they'll start defecting, and two, he can't shoot people in the streets, the troops won't do it and it'll just toughen the protesters' resolve), and he can't keep on keepin' on. He'll have to call elections or resign or do something. I can see this stage lasting maybe a week; past that point something has to give.

[DWC]

I wonder how long it'll take for Erdoğan to crack. The third day of protests starts now...He can't start calling in the army (for one thing, they'll start defecting, and two, he can't shoot people in the streets, the troops won't do it and it'll just toughen the protesters' resolve), and he can't keep on keepin' on. He'll have to call elections or resign or do something. I can see this stage lasting maybe a week; past that point something has to give.

I dunno, maybe some sharia law fundamentalist thugs will be bused in to hold 'counter protests' and the police will let them duke it out.

Probably not. I don't think protests are going to topple this government or cause any civil war. Over some trees in a park, really.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Honestly, while I'm hoping for the best, I've honestly given up expecting things to turn out well.

Like, ya know, Libya. Over through a Dictator, and then put up members of Islamic extremist groups as their new leaders. Or, Egypt, that now has a leader who has called for the destruction of Israel multiple times in the past.

I'm just saying, I hope this one turns out better.

Gaddafi and Mubarak were secular dictators. Monstrous people, but being secular meant Islamists were always going to try to get themselves into the opposition.

In this instance, the Islamists are already controlling the government and are the ones being protested against.

Probably not. I don't think protests are going to topple this government or cause any civil war. Over some trees in a park, really.

It isn't over the park. The crackdown on the park protest just set everyone off. Erdogan's abuses are many.

[FearfulJesuit]

But it isn't over some trees in a park. That's what started it, but it isn't about the park any more than the Arab Spring was about a guy setting himself on fire. It's about Erdoğan's authoritarianism.

And it's really a damn shame, because Erdoğan has his head screwed on pretty straight economically and on most (hardly all) domestic policy. He's pretty power-hungry, and what he's ordered done to the protestors is some scary stuff, but he's competent, and I'm not entirely sure the same will be said for whoever takes his place. I'd love to see the protestors prove me wrong, though.

Edit: Dammit, MSH, stop ninja'ing me.

[Foamybeard]

Honestly, while I'm hoping for the best, I've honestly given up expecting things to turn out well.

Like, ya know, Libya. Over through a Dictator, and then put up members of Islamic extremist groups as their new leaders. Or, Egypt, that now has a leader who has called for the destruction of Israel multiple times in the past.

I'm just saying, I hope this one turns out better.

Gaddafi and Mubarak were secular dictators. Monstrous people, but being secular meant Islamists were always going to try to get themselves into the opposition.

In this instance, the Islamists are already controlling the government and are the ones being protested against.

I hope it goes good, then. I'd hate to see Turkey get a worse tyrant than Erdogan.

[DWC]

But it isn't over some trees in a park. That's what started it, but it isn't about the park anymore than the Arab Spring was about a guy setting himself on fire. It's about Erdoğan's authoritarianism.

And it's really a damn shame, because Erdoğan has his head screwed on pretty straight economically. He's pretty power-hungry, and what he's ordered done to the protestors is some scary stuff, but he's competent, and I'm not entirely sure the same will be said for whoever takes his place. I'd love to see the protestors prove me wrong, though.

Edit: Dammit, MSH, stop ninja'ing me.

Yeah I know it's not about trees, but that's what people are going to refer back to. A guy setting himself on fire is expected to cause people to lose their shit and people will remember that, some trees in a park, well, that's not a very memorable spark.

I did hear about the problem with the trees in the park on the radio, before it kicked off major protests. The gov't wants to rebuild an historical military barracks that was once on the park site, and use that structure as a shopping mall. So it's not even as bad as if they were paving over some ancient patch of trees or something. It's part of their strategy for increasing tourism for the city or some such.

Although I understand this current government has been fairly unpopular with liberals since the day they took office, so idk.