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[Ukrainian Ranger]

No, it isn't. Neither turning the other cheek, not casting the first stone, or giving away all your spare belongings to those who have less, the Christians who listened to Jesus were always the minority. If most of Christianity gave a damn about them, mainstream Christians would be full of pacifist communists, not
authoritarian conservatives.

Early Christians were quite close to pacifist communists... then they got power and we got basically new ideology with the same name.
The whole church structure is not  based on the Bible. Stuff like priests, holidays, saints, ritual details, dogmas like "Seven Deadly Sins" and more never came from the Bible... Voltaire demonstrated that quite well in his L'Ingénu satirical novella

shadenight123, OK, we see, you are an atheist, thank you.
I do agree with you, that man that believes in fairy-tales like Noah's Ark can't  be called perfectly healthy.

But books aren't only books, books are tools in spreading ideals, Ideals is what rules human's actions and decisions... And all Ideals are beliefs.
There are no ways to prove racial supremacy, so racism is belief.
There are no scientific methods to prove that Love (not a set of chemical reactions and reflexes) exist...
There are no scientific methods to prove that equal rights is a good thing

[Hár]

The tedious thing about people who equate Christianity and Islam is that they invariably select stupid shit from the old Testament without including how Jesus later said, "Yeah, um... no, let's not do that" somewhere in the New Testament. I see those people are up to their old tricks here. Jesus was adding on to old customs, he didn't have the luxury of starting with a blank slate. If you take what Jesus actually promoted, you get nothing to complain about at all. Mohammed, on the other hand...

One thing I know about Jesus and Mohammed: Jesus never picked up a sword and killed people. Mohammed did.

[casserol]

Ukrainian Ranger, would you like a nice collection of mild-to-disgusting-outright-racist clichés on eastern europe and specifically ukraine from western europe and specifically france ? I find being on the receiving end sometimes help to relativize things .
Because if you, as an eastern european, see muslims as an inferior culture, you'd be surprised to hear what some westerners think of you.

And I'm completely sincere. I'm part of the "majority" group in my country, and I've always found racism and biggotry stomach-turning at best, but it still never touched me like that time where through some ancestry I was technically included in a "minority" group racism was being aimed at. My trusty brothers-in-cultures-and-nation-and-color-and-religious-background-and-whatnot hurling electronic vomit at my ancestors and very distant relatives.

Ukrainian Ranger, would you like a nice collection of mild-to-disgusting-outright-racist clichés on eastern europe and specifically ukraine from western europe and specifically france ? I find being on the receiving end sometimes help to relativize things .

Because if you, as an eastern european, see muslims as an inferior culture, you'd be surprised to hear what some westerners think of you.

edit: and trust me, being of a "white and christian" background won't saves you.

1) Feel free, that's quite interesting to hear. You may use PM if you don't want to post it here
2) I doubt that I'll get surprised
3) I bet that many of cliches are at least partially  justified. Some are total nonsense. As usual
4) Don't call my intolerance to one specific religion racism. I don't care what color of skin Muslim has
5) I think that Arab\Persian\North Caucasian cultures are very beautiful, deep and interesting. (Can't say about Indonesian, Pakistani and others cultures.... I never encountered them on large scale. But I am sure that have a lot to offer to humanity, too) but, unfortunately, they are infected by harmful, destructive ideology.  When they'll cure themselves ( I hope so) world will become a better place. Every Muslim country has growing secular movements, I wish them luck as they fight against tyranny. They are terrorized, they are tortured, they are killed.

Right, so, I tried a couple times but found out I'm embarassed to even write it 

I'll try to sum it up :

-women are beautiful, but are prostitutes/drug addict/thieves/uneducated and marrying or scamming on the internet rich old men cuz' they're greedy.
-men are drunkard,violent and homophobic skinheads, almost as much as in russia, and primarily thieves (not as much as romanians, but more than poles) but variously criminals altogether (drugs, sex slavery), most of them in the mafias and/or the corrupt government. All the eastern europe clichés + bonus points cuz you're not in the EU.
-ukraine is a third world country, cf. eastern europe + not UE.
-but on a positive note, you're not (yet) trying to TOAEK UR JABS

And you can discuss with these peoples all you want, pointing out to them that they never set foot in ukraine, met at most 3 ukrainian peoples in their lives, and don't educate themselves on worlds socio-economics subjects or geopolitics or anything, and havn't even read a travel prospectus about ukraine, that won't weight a hair against all the times they heard "east europe criminal gangs" in the news.

And the most hardcore of them will come up with exactly the same structure of argument you do, actually, though they're pretty rare at the moment I'll admit, today in france racism fashion is more at the muslims/arabs/black/jews/romanian/combination-thereoff peoples. Ukrainian are likely to fall under the eastern europe umbrella without much nuance (except it's even more third world than EU eastern europe or turkey. Turkey's relatively in favor in the eyes of the middle-far-right in france today).


edit: added quotes to replace post in context

[Max White]

The tedious thing about people who equate Christianity and Islam is that they invariably select stupid shit from the old Testament without including how Jesus later said, "Yeah, um... no, let's not do that" somewhere in the New Testament. I see those people are up to their old tricks here. Jesus was adding on to old customs, he didn't have the luxury of starting with a blank slate. If you take what Jesus actually promoted, you get nothing to complain about at all. Mohammed, on the other hand...

One thing I know about Jesus and Mohammed: Jesus never picked up a sword and killed people. Mohammed did.

New Testament
Romans 1 : 27 - 32

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Translation: Put homosexuals to death.

That was a random quote I found somewhat quickly in the new testament in my pocket bible that a guy gave to me when I walked past a church once. In less a minute I could find a quote advocating that gays are worthy of death is this 'oh so holy and oh so peaceful new testament'
Don't pretend the bible isn't full of hate speech.

[Frumple]

One thing I know about Jesus and Mohammed: Jesus never picked up a sword and killed people. Mohammed did.

Ah... revelations actually has a nice bit of Jesus riding around killing people, if you were looking for that sort of thing. Rider on the white horse, etc. Guess you could say, "But Revelations" to that, but hey, New Testament. Last book of it too, so far as I'm aware, which makes for an interesting parallel with the way the Quran becomes violent as it goes along...

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Translation: Put homosexuals to death.

Sorry, but that translation is wrong. Worthy of death  and your duty is to  put them to death (Or it's OK to put them to death) are very different things.  Worthy of death doesn't cancel that you need to love that persons...  Neither that mean that you shouldn't help them to become better.
Besides, that's quite personal interpretation, but I think spiritual death is meant here.

___________________

Spoiler: To casserol (click to show/hide)

,
hehe.
Sure, I am not surprised. It is exaggerating but sadly it sums major problems and social deceases of Ukrainan nation quite well and isn't made up from nothing

-women are beautiful, but are prostitutes/drug addict/thieves/uneducated and marrying or scamming on the internet rich old men cuz' they're greedy.

That's a most unjust part, but unfortunately I can't say that it's totally untrue, of cause it's biased and overestimated because girls that have self respect are less noticeable but quite a lot of Ukrainan girls do lack self respect like that. Also, unfortunately, due to fact that government does nothing to stop that awful crime industry,  world has huge number of Ukrainan sex slaves in dozens of countries

-men are drunkard

Yep, it's a huge problem of Ukrainian society, we have millions of alcoholics, including teenagers. We have idiotic traditions that any. I repeat any holiday should include ridiculous amounts of strong alcohol

violent and homophobic skinheads

That is a result of some complex propaganda, Mostly from Russia\our own Government. Number of skinheads is in fact low (no that they are absent or that we have few passive racists)  but homophobic is 100% true. Hey, it's one of the most common insults to call someone gay here.

and primarily thieves

Yep, theft is not something very immoral for millions of Ukrainians , if you steal not from an average person but from  some organization\government\business\richman.
That's come from:
a) communist dogma rooted deep inside some minds - rich people are bad and got everything in unfair way so stealing from them is perfectly fine moralewise
b) Many people were forced to steal from the state during Soviet rule to survive so it is assumed that this is fine

-ukraine is a third world country

Yes, Ukraine can be called a third world country. Corruption level, GDP per capita, human rights aren't far from African countries
Hell, we have a robber and rapist as a president... It's so shameful, but that's true.
Ukraine is a nation in a quite sour state, that's just a fact. We have a lot of work to do to become a healthy nation and build free and rich country

[10ebbor10]

Don't pretend the bible isn't full of hate speech.

I won't pretend the Bible can't be misinterpreted (or alternative interpretation, if you believe so...). Still, with religions you don't need to focus on what the 2000 year old outdated text says, but on what the people believe. And with that I don't mean the fundamentalists, or whatever crazy sects you manage to find on the net.

Now let's not be judgemental, and read a few lines further.

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.  2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.

From this we can see that the summation of flaws on the previous page were not a hatespeach against homosexuality*, but that homosexuality is just one in a number of flaws humanity has ((as a result of original sin))**.

*In fact, if you read a bit further, and compare a few things in different chapters, you see that it's not homosexuality that is convicted, but instead sex for pleasure. (Because if your relation is based on the pleasure you get from it, it leads to objectification of your partner, and then bad things happen.)

**The Bible rehashes this quite a lot actually. What exactly this original sin is varies from interpretation to interpretation. Often it's something like Pride, or the necessity to compare oneself to another.

Fakeedit: I found the citation also remarkably appropriate.

Relevant

[Max White]

If by 'next line' you mean 'next chapter'... Romans 2 is about the sin that is sexual pleasure, Romans 1 is about how evil gay people are. The chapter ends where my quote does.

Sorry, but that translation is wrong. Worthy of death  and your duty is to  put them to death (Or it's OK to put them to death) are very different things.  Worthy of death doesn't cancel that you need to love that persons...  Neither that mean that you shouldn't help them to become better.
Besides, that's quite personal interpretation, but I think spiritual death is meant here.

You think homosexuality is spiritual death and it is your duty to help them become 'better'?

[10ebbor10]

It's a letter. There is a clear continuation of the text. Besides, the chapters are never meant to be interpreted individually. 

Besides, you snipped of a large part from "Chapter" 1 too, just to suit your point. Actually focus more on "heathens" than gay people. ((As said before, homosexuality* is just one of the large numbers of sins))

But whatever, you seem to have judged, and well, certainly nothing is going to change your just and impartial judgement.

*Not even that, see previous post and the footnote therein.

Sorry, but that translation is wrong. Worthy of death  and your duty is to  put them to death (Or it's OK to put them to death) are very different things.  Worthy of death doesn't cancel that you need to love that persons...  Neither that mean that you shouldn't help them to become better.
Besides, that's quite personal interpretation, but I think spiritual death is meant here.

You think homosexuality is spiritual death and it is your duty to help them become 'better'?

As said before, homosexuality* is just one of the sins enumerated. All of these caused by not believing in god**.



*Not even that, see previous post and the footnote therein.
**

"ὁ θεòς ἀγάπη ἐστίν" ó theòs agape estín

Translation: God is love (It's said in the Bible quite a few times). Do note that the love meant here is agape(unconditional, self-sacrificing love) as opposed to Eros (possessive, often sexual, love),

edit: Sorry for the slight editing. Was a result of tremendous amounts of 504 errors.

[Max White]

Very well, here is he entire Romans 1 and 2

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Now please tell me, where does it clarify that homosexuality is not a sin? It very specifically says "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly"
What does that mean? "Leaving the natural use of women" and " burned in their lust one toward another"
Please, educate me.

[10ebbor10]

It doesn't. However, the text you shown us is not about homosexuality at all. It's about a small group of Christians that left the church for some pagan religion (Ie heathens). Homosexual intercourse was a part of some of these rituals, and such was listed amongst the flaws. If this were a blanket ban against homosexuality, then that would mean that homosexuality did not exist in Jewish society. (It did, btw. Was quite tolerated). Hence we can assume, I hope, that this is just against a certain form of homosexuality. Synopsis: They got drawn away from god (=Agape, unconditional love*) and towards Eros (Passionate, sometimes violent and destructive, often sexual love).

Neither does it say that homosexualism is a sin. Historically, there was no real word for it, which makes translations interesting, and often wrong.
For example, in a few other texts there's question wherether a certain word refers to homosexuality, pediastry, or something else entirely.

Relevant link
Other relevant link.

*This is repeated in the New Testament for exactly 110 times.

[GlyphGryph]

You never did explain how you figured Saudia Arabia, of all places, was somehow the center of Islam

Heard about some minor city -  Mecca?
There are more Catholics in Brazil than Italy, but...

So you're saying that Isreal is the center of Christianity? Catholicism and the Vatican are different - that kind of heirarchical top-down structure that isn't mirrored in Islam.

And you continue to seemingly deny the existance of India and Indonesia, where most Muslims actually LIVE

In India they are minority
As for Indonesia, after Dutch colonial period and Suharto's rule they got quite secular society and average Indonesian is not more Muslims than average European is Christian. There are huge difference in answering I am practicing Faith A to census question and actually practicing that faith

So what you're saying is that living in a Westernized country, you end up with a religion that's practically the same as Christianity? Man, then it's a good thing most Muslimslive in Westernized countries isn't it!

Proper, devoted Muslims do exist in Indonesia and do stuff like that:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings
Less devoted Indonesian Muslims create parties to introduce some Sharia laws in Indonesia.
Luckily Democratic parties win elections here, i hope Islamists will never get power in Indonesia

"Proper"? And "Proper" Christians bomb abortion clinics, and execute homosexuals and non-whites, right? That's following the same logic. Good to know the number of "proper" Christians have been on the decline in the USA!
 
All the exact same thing that could be said about OTHER religious fanatics in other westernized countries. There are a LOT of people in the US that support Biblical law, and quite a few countries in Europe that have a State Religion. I agree with you - it's never good for fundies to get power - but you yourself admitted that mainstream Muslims are effectively equivalent

[Max White]

Relevant link
Other relevant link.

According to your links, homosexuality is a symptom of the sins of the Gentiles. Do you believe homosexuality to be indicative of sinners who 'worship false idols'?

[10ebbor10]

Relevant link
Other relevant link.

According to your links, homosexuality is a symptom of the sins of the Gentiles. Do you believe homosexuality to be indicative of sinners who 'worship false idols'?

Well, Gentiles is another of those interestingly translated words. It can mean anything from Non-Hebrew to certain pagan religions. Interpretations vary wildly.
Another interesting thing is that you seem to like to keep hanging on the fact that the description can be translated as each and every form of homosexuality.

In short, your question can probably be answered with yes.

After all, as I've been saying for several posts  (God = Agape (Undemanding, unconditional love)). Idolatry in the Bible often means abandoning it. Therefore you end up with the Eros (Passionate, Sensual love. Often destructive if left unchecked). The Bible does not approve of the later, if it does not have it's basis in the former. Hence why it denounces the homosexual fertility rituals in those specific pagan cults, for they were not based on the love for one other, but on an all consuming lust (Which eventually leads to tragedy). 

Edit: Getting a bit link heavy.

Relevant
Relevant
note: The texts in the previous post were links from Wikipedia. Haven't read them through entirely.

The theory itself
Generic links on the theories that form the basis of this statement
Generic links on the theories that form the basis of this statement

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Now please tell me, where does it clarify that homosexuality is not a sin?

Well, Everyone knows that Homosexuality is a sin in Christian religion*, and?

You think homosexuality is spiritual death and it is your duty to help them become 'better'?

I can't call myself Christian, but yep, for Christians* that is exactly like that.
As for my own views on Homosexuality and sex in general - I strongly believe that adults have a right to fuck whoever they want using whatever methods as long as they keep it in private areas and all participating parties are consenting adults. One of the things I dislike in Christianity that it makes sex way more important than it should be.

So you're saying that Isreal is the center of Christianity?

Nope, It could be one of the centers, should Crusades won that wars... Also, Christianity puts far less attention to holy places than Islam

So what you're saying is that living in a Westernized country, you end up with a religion that's practically the same as Christianity?

I am saying that living in westernized countries, produce way more skeptics, agnostics and atheists.... Christian agnostic from Sweden and Muslim agnostic from Turkey don't differ much, while devoted Swedish Protestant and devoted Turkish Sunni Muslim have very different sets of morals

And "Proper" Christians bomb abortion clinics, and execute homosexuals and non-whites, right?

I am tired to repeat the very same thing but doing it once more:
Using violence like that is prohibited by Christian religion so that's not proper Christians. Using violence like that in Bali is encouraged by Islam religion so that's proper Muslims


Edit: *well some Christians disagree