Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Max White]

Nazi party is unbanned. Freedom of speech, you are allowed any sort of political party based on any ideal. I don't like the policies they would support, but they have as much right to exist as any other political party.
Heck if you wanted to start a 'Pedophile Party' that promoted peoples right to abuse children, you are allowed to. Expect public disapproval, but it is within your legal rights. Why do you think there is still a Pirate Party? Piracy might be illegal, but fighting for it to be legal is fine.

So by my logic, yes, Nazi Party should be unbanned, and it is.

Now...
1) What is and is not 'important' in the bible is dependent on who is reading it. The same is true for any holy text, as such you can not assert that Muslims take the violent parts of the Quran as more important.
2) No, this is false. It is just the case that when somebody promotes Violence in the name of Islam, it receives more attention than when somebody promotes peace.
3) Once again, false. You have a selection bias here.

Are Saudi Arabian and Iranian governments violent sects?

No. They are corrupt non-secular governments.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Heck if you wanted to start a 'Pedophile Party' that promoted peoples right to abuse children, you are allowed to.

Wow, I am speechless here. So you are from tolerate anything party?
BTW, can I register a party that would promote to decriminalize murder of some minority groups? Oh, you answered that question already with "Nazi party should be unbanned"

So by my logic, yes, Nazi Party should be unbanned, and it is.

Maybe in Australia it is, don't know... but good luck  promoting Nazism in Germany and not getting to a jail

No. They are corrupt non-secular governments.

I see, not a proper Muslims either... Can you, please, describe what mainstream Islam is? Their practices, their leaders, their ideology?

[Max White]

Yes, I am tolerant of the existence of any and all parties. That doesn't mean I will sit back and not argue with them though. If somebody did choose to exercise their freedom of speech with something as morally grotesque as a Pedophile Party, I would exercise my freedom of speech my telling them why they are assholes and fighting against any legislation they propose. That is how it works.

You have the right to say what ever you like, and the expectation for it to be subject to critique. Yes, you can certainly start a party that promotes genocide,and I would fight for your right to have that party, but then you should also expect me to argue against your policy.

Part of morality is understanding how standards work. You can't have two of them.

And if you want to understand Muslim beliefs, why not talk to one? I'm an atheist, as far as I care the difference between a Muslim and a Christian is salad dressing.

[Sheb]

Except Islam doesn't account for a disproportionate share of violence. Not once you correct for other factors like the fact that you have more Muslims countries than Christian countries that are currently in a state of deep mess. Back when Lebanon was a mess too, you had Christian militias massacring Muslims.

That was the point of looking at terrorism in Europe, where everyone lives in working states. As I showed, Islamist perform a tiny minority of all terrorism acts.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Max White I never imagined that view "let's allow propoganda of just
everything" exist, thank you for proving me wrong.

Sheb, I think you are mixing cause and effect here. Terrorists create mess, not mess creates terrorists

As for Lebanon...  It has nothing to do with Christian church, Phalangists did that massacre. They call themselves Nationalists not army of god waging holy war. They never killed in a name of God, they killed in the name of their nation. They killed on basis of ethnical hate, not on basis of religious hate
That was a retaliation to assassination of president, not some religious leader

That's just wrong to say - if terrorist believes in Christian God, then he is a Christian Terrorist.
Nope, he will be Christian terrorist only if he kills in the name of god, like Muslims do with their Allah Akbar.
Else you can start talking about Christian murders, Christian robbers, Christian rapists


PS: I still want to see the list of 200 European terror acts  in 2012

[Max White]

Max White I never imagined that view "let's allow propoganda of just
everything" exist, thank you for proving me wrong.

Then you have been deluded for a very long time. Do you know what made WWII Nazi propaganda as bad as it was? It wasn't what they were saying, even though that was vicious lies, that wasn't what put them over the edge. It was the fact that they silenced anybody who said otherwise. They were totally intolerant of any other views but their own.
When you silence any and all political rivals, and expose the public to only one point of view, what do you think happens? How do you think they managed to mobilize a country to war. People like you or I became the type that guarded concentration camps because they honestly believed it was the right thing.

Nazi propaganda wasn't as powerful a weapon as it was because they had the best liars, it was as powerful as it was because they were the only ones with a voice.


That is why absolute freedom of speech is important. Everything, everything is subject to criticism, even the things you love and hold dear.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Don't exaggerate from "some ideologies should be banned" to "all ideologies but one should be banned."

You know, if Nazi party was banned back in 1920s... We could have much better 20th century. Tolerance to barbaric party led to concentration camps.

And, I ask you to not play the card "Nazi's were bad but Germans were misjudged and held no responsibility"

Nazi propaganda wasn't as powerful a weapon as it was because they had the best liars, it was as powerful as it was because they were the only ones with a voice.

Sure, Nazi never had a chance to get a single vote in a fair democratic elections when different opinions are allowed

[Max White]

As soon as "some ideologies should be banned" you are going to have problems. People will not just fight against things they don't agree with, they will fight to have them totally erased and punish those who express their views. This is the death of free society.

[Eagle_eye]

I'm not sure I agree. There are some things that should be given absolutely no chance to ever occur again, and fascism is one of them. Germany has banned the Nazi party and everything associated with it, and I don't see any growing police state over there.

Not to mention that government censorship isn't the only sort of political repression possible. Socialism(by which I mean workers seizing control of industry, not a Scandinavian model) is incredibly unpopular in the US. It has virtually no influence. The practical effect is pretty much indistinguishable from being explicitly banned from participating in elections.

[casserol]

Ukrainian Ranger, would you like a nice collection of mild-to-disgusting-outright-racist clichés on eastern europe and specifically ukraine from western europe and specifically france ? I find being on the receiving end sometimes help to relativize things .

Because if you, as an eastern european, see muslims as an inferior culture, you'd be surprised to hear what some westerners think of you.

edit: and trust me, being of a "white and christian" background won't saves you.

[casserol]

I'd advise against it, if only for the fact it may get you muted.

Well if he hasn't been muted so far, I probably won't either, I'll try to dose it right.

And I'm completely sincere. I'm part of the "majority" group in my country, and I've always found racism and biggotry stomach-turning at best, but it still never touched me like that time where through some ancestry I was technically included in a "minority" group racism was being aimed at. My trusty brothers-in-cultures-and-nation-and-color-and-religious-background-and-whatnot hurling electronic vomit at my ancestors and very distant relatives.

[scriver]

Max White I never imagined that view "let's allow propoganda of just
everything" exist, thank you for proving me wrong.

Sheb, I think you are mixing cause and effect here. Terrorists create mess, not mess creates terrorists

As for Lebanon...  It has nothing to do with Christian church, Phalangists did that massacre. They call themselves Nationalists not army of god waging holy war. They never killed in a name of God, they killed in the name of their nation. They killed on basis of ethnical hate, not on basis of religious hate
That was a retaliation to assassination of president, not some religious leader

That's just wrong to say - if terrorist believes in Christian God, then he is a Christian Terrorist.
Nope, he will be Christian terrorist only if he kills in the name of god, like Muslims do with their Allah Akbar.
Else you can start talking about Christian murders, Christian robbers, Christian rapists

Nationalism is often extremely linked with religion and culture. Just look at the Bosnian war in the 90s.


PS: I still want to see the list of 200 European terror acts  in 2012

You've already been linked and/or told how to find it.

[misko27]

Allah Akbar means God is great though, not just god.

[Sheb]

As your rightly point out, the Phalangist weren't just killing for fun and God. They were avenging a president, fighting for their group, there is a whole context, I'm not denying that.

The problem is you don't take into account the same context for Islamists. Look at Palestinian terrorist for exemple. Yes, they shout Allah Akbar while shooting rockets at civilians, and they're clearly islamist. But the terrorists that today operate for Hamas are much similar in background and motive to those that worked for the secular PLO in the 70's.

The causes of Hamas violence has more in common with the IRA or ETA than with the repression in Saudi Arabia.

As for the "mess does'nt create terrorism", don't you think you're more likely to turn violent in the midst of a civil war?

P.S. As for the list, well, if you're too fucking lazy to click a link, that's your problem.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Nationalism is often extremely linked with religion and culture. Just look at the Bosnian war in the 90s.

Culture is always linked because nation (from ethnical nationalism point of view)  and culture are basically the very same thing
And,yep, almost every many nationalist parties are linked with some religion, because  majority of nations have one dominant culture. But please, don't try to prove me that IRA vs Britain is catholics vs protestants issue

Ukrainian Ranger, would you like a nice collection of mild-to-disgusting-outright-racist clichés on eastern europe and specifically ukraine from western europe and specifically france ? I find being on the receiving end sometimes help to relativize things .

Because if you, as an eastern european, see muslims as an inferior culture, you'd be surprised to hear what some westerners think of you.

edit: and trust me, being of a "white and christian" background won't saves you.

1) Feel free, that's quite interesting to hear. You may use PM if you don't want to post it here
2) I doubt that I'll get surprised
3) I bet that many of cliches are at least partially  justified. Some are total nonsense. As usual
4) Don't call my intolerance to one specific religion racism. I don't care what color of skin Muslim has
5) I think that Arab\Persian\North Caucasian cultures are very beautiful, deep and interesting. (Can't say about Indonesian, Pakistani and others cultures.... I never encountered them on large scale. But I am sure that have a lot to offer to humanity, too) but, unfortunately, they are infected by harmful, destructive ideology.  When they'll cure themselves ( I hope so) world will become a better place. Every Muslim country has growing secular movements, I wish them luck as they fight against tyranny. They are terrorized, they are tortured, they are killed.

In fact, back in 70s, Islam was much weaker than it is now. Somehow countries like Iran and Afghanistan reversed their course. I blame Cold War, as both USA and USSR funded outright bastards in the region

The problem is you don't take into account the same context for Islamists. Look at Palestinian terrorist for exemple. Yes, they shout Allah Akbar while shooting rockets at civilians, and they're clearly islamist. But the terrorists that today operate for Hamas are much similar in background and motive to those that worked for the secular PLO in the 70's.

The causes of Hamas violence has more in common with the IRA or ETA than with the repression in Saudi Arabia.

You are partially right, that's damn hard to separate nationalism and Islamism  when they do terrorist attacks in occupied countries as Afghanistan, Palestine or North Caucasian countries inside Russian federation.  That's a typical propaganda move to call all guys that fight against your  occupation troops Islamists (Nazis\Communists\Spies\Bandits....)
But:
a) I am sure that Islamism makes guerrilla much more violent. Unnecessary violent
b) Islamic terrorism exist in non occupied countries. 
c) Countries that are stable and Islamic, practice terrorism toward their own citizens.