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[Eagle_eye]

Culture is always linked because nation (from ethnical nationalism point of view)  and culture are basically the very same thing

Not so. The culture of Southern California is definitely distinct from rural Mississippi, but you'll probably find racist American nationalists in both.

a) I am sure that Islamism makes guerrilla much more violent. Unnecessary violent

Do you have any actual evidence? Islam isn't going to make people use violence when it doesn't advance their goals, and lack of Islam certainly doesn't make people nonviolent.

b) Islamic terrorism exist in non occupied countries. 

As does non-Islamic terrorism. Brevik, for example.

c) Countries that are stable and Islamic, practice terrorism toward their own citizens.

Care to elaborate? I'm pretty sure places like Turkey and Jordan aren't hiring suicide bombers to kill their own people, and the political repression they do do is no worse than what happens in China or South Africa.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Do you have any actual evidence? Islam isn't going to make people use violence when it doesn't advance their goals, and lack of Islam certainly doesn't make people nonviolent.

That is obvious from their goals
1) Goal of a resistance movement: Make enemy go away
2) Goal of Islamists: Kill as many non-believers as possible
That's why resistance movements tend to not attack Red Cross Missions or Sunny\Shia mosques, while Islamists happily do

As does non-Islamic terrorism. Brevik, for example.

[sarcasm] Yep, yep, quantity of real terror acts ( not some strange 200+ European ones that failed to kill anyone) is comparable [/sarcasm]

Care to elaborate? I'm pretty sure places like Turkey and Jordan aren't hiring suicide bombers to kill their own people, and the political repression they do do is no worse than what happens in China or South Africa.

Turkey and Jordan are quite secular countries and called lapdogs of the West for that. Yemen, Iran, Saudi Arabia are more interesting examples

Governments have more effective ways to terrorize than hiring suicide bombers. "Justice" system, prisons or closing their eyes to what "righteous citizens" are doing (like killing girls for chatting in Facebook).  Sure countries like Zimbabwe, Burma or North Korea have even worse ideologies than Islam. So what?

[Eagle_eye]

That's why resistance movements tend to not attack Red Cross Missions or Sunny\Shia mosques, while Islamists happily do

Right, which is why plenty of Red Cross workers were attacked during the wars following the breakup of Yugoslavia.

[sarcasm] Yep, yep, quantity of real terror acts ( not some strange 200+ European ones that failed to kill anyone) is comparable [/sarcasm]

Brevik killed plenty of people. If you want more examples:  The Shining Path and Lord's Resistance Army are both decidedly not Islamist.

"Justice" system, prisons or closing their eyes to what "righteous citizens" are doing (like killing girls for chatting in Facebook).

So in other words, a horribly corrupt legal system. That's not something special about Islamism.

Sure countries like Zimbabwe, Burma or North Korea have even worse ideologies than Islam. So what?

So that means that Islam probably isn't the root cause of those abuses, since they're widespread in non-Islamic countries.

[Sheb]

Ukrainian rangers, those 200+ other acts account for most of terrorist deaths in Europe. It's all in the table I posted earlier, sourced from the same reports.

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

So it is perfectly rational for me to hate Christianity?

The Bible teaches that I should be stoned to death for leaving the faith. So, yes, I hate the Bible. And yes, obviously this means that I hate Christianity, because it is founded on a dogmatic belief in, and adherence to, the Bible, the book that orders its followers to kill me.

I do NOT, however, hate most Christians. Most Christians do not follow what Christianity teaches. They do not try to stone me, because they are good and moral people who would find such an evil act to be abhorrent. I get along fine with Christians, as long as they ignore this teaching from the religion they supposedly believe in.

My opinion of Islam and Muslims is about the same, only I think Islam turns the evil up to eleven. But just like most Christians don't follow what the Bible says, most Muslims don't follow what the Koran says. Therefor, most non-Muslims can get along with most Muslims without either side killing the other... usually. As long as everyone is willing to abandon the horrendous moral guidance of their holy books, we all get along fine.

Yes, I think that Islam has to go. I actually think that all baseless superstitions should be done away with, and since Islam is the worst, we should start with it. But, unlike the Koran, I don't propose forcing people to change their beliefs through violence, war, rape, mutilation, and heavy-handed economic coercion. I prefer education. Teach the people critical thinking and skepticism and they will eventually abandon baseless superstitions themselves. It worked for me. I see no reason why it can't work for anyone else.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Right, which is why plenty of Red Cross workers were attacked during the wars following the breakup of Yugoslavia.

Yugoslavian War was quit a mess... I don't know much about those attacks and to lazy to dig. Let's assume you are right here

But what about regular attacks on mosques in Iraq? Is that really required to draw Americans off?

Brevik killed plenty of people. If you want more examples:  The Shining Path and Lord's Resistance Army are both decidedly not Islamist.

Order of magnitude is still very different.
Besides how is it related what others do wrong to what Islam does?

So in other words, a horribly corrupt legal system. That's not something special about Islamism.

Oh, I heard the same stuff about Communism and USSR so many times
Communism is a good ideology and people shouldn't be blames for it's crimes! That's Stalin who was bad! Other political ideologies had cruel dictators, too!
No, that's not a corrupt legal system, that's Islamic legal system

So that means that Islam probably isn't the root cause of those abuses, since they're widespread in non-Islamic countries.

Nope, that means that there are other nasty stuff in the world. I never said that Islam is a source of all evil of humanity.

__________________________

Sheb, Googled europol reports, downloaded 2013 one, having a good laugh

 2 persons were killed
in separatist terrorist attacks in 2012,
including a prison officer in Northern Ireland
 167 attacks were carried out
 257 individuals were arrested
for offences related to ethno-nationalist and separatist
terrorism in EU Member States

What can I say? Separatist terrosts are lame

LEFT-WING AND ANARCHIST TERRORISM
 18 terrorist attacks
were carried out in the EU in 2012,
continuing the
downward trend since 2010
 24 individuals were
arrested in 4 EU Member States

Left-wing terrorists are even more lame, zero kill rate

WTF those attacks are? Posting in Facebook?

8 people lost their lives as a result of attacks
related to religiously inspired terrorism in 20121
 Religiously inspired terrorists carried out
6 attacks on EU territory in 2012 compared to
0 attacks defined as terrorism in 20112
 Arrests related to religiously inspired terrorism
increased from 122 in 2011 to 159 in 2012
 EU citizens increasingly targeted for kidnapping

Finally, Religious guys are truly peaceful, only 6 attacks in the whole year! And they are pros, 1.33 kill rate per attack!

Don't you see that those stats are biased bullshit?

[Sheb]

How are they biased? Just because they don't fit your prejudices?

If anything, they include too many things in terrorism, which bring the fraction done by muslims a bit. But you can't deny it's still a tiny minority of terrorist acts.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I'll show you an example of Right Wing "terrorism" from that report:

In Germany, in 2012, a small right-wing extremist party
organised a series of demonstrations in front of different
mosques, as well as a defamatory cartoon competition.
Confrontations between members of the group and
salafists resulted in violent clashes.

I bet that similar stuff from Muslims isn't counted as terrorism
Obviously they count only real terror acts for Muslims and just anything for others

+ one thing to note

1 A further seven people were killed as a result of the terrorist attack at Burgas (Bulgaria) airport.
Although Hezbollah is suspected of carrying out the attack, the responsibility was not determined
definitively at the time of writing.

So, the table should have not 8 from 17, but 15 from 24. That's majority
Edit: nope, it should be 15 from 17

[misko27]

Every time I log on I'm surprised this thread hasn't escalated, it's contents locked, provacateurs banned.

Anyway, on actual Multi-Culturalism, how about the New Cheerios ad, featuring a inter-racial family, which suffered a racist backlash. They have been forced to disable comments on it for youtube.

[Eagle_eye]

But what about regular attacks on mosques in Iraq? Is that really required to draw Americans off?

Required? Probably not. But I expect they think it helps.

Order of magnitude is still very different.
Besides how is it related what others do wrong to what Islam does?

Because you're saying that Islam is at fault, instead of the people just being assholes, whereas you're not blaming Christianity for the LRA. Also, the order of magnitude is not so different: thousands of people have been harmed/killed/enslaved by the LRA.

Oh, I heard the same stuff about Communism and USSR so many times
Communism is a good ideology and people shouldn't be blames for it's crimes! That's Stalin who was bad! Other political ideologies had cruel dictators, too!
No, that's not a corrupt legal system, that's Islamic legal system

Yeah, and it's just as valid there. The only Soviet leader who adhered to an ideology even remotely resembling communism was Lenin, and even he was rather diverged from Marx. Unless an ideology specifically calls for the crime, it's the people who are the root cause, not the ideology. Moderate Islam does not call for murder.

Nope, that means that there are other nasty stuff in the world. I never said that Islam is a source of all evil of humanity.

The simpler and more reasonable explanation is that people are inclined to violence by default.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Required? Probably not. But I expect they think it helps.

And why they think it helps? Not because Islam suggest that all problems are from those guys who go into a wrong kind of mosque?

Because you're saying that Islam is at fault, instead of the people just being assholes,

Yep, I am saying that Islam is at fault for millions and millions of persecuted women and other stuff. I kinda dislike that topics is more focused on terrorists and not on the fact that Islam isn't compatible with basic human rights at all

It's one thing when asshole man beats his wife to submission and another thing when man is doing that because his Holy Book (read the whole society around) told him so and he knows he will not be punished for that because it's completely legal thing to do

It's one thing when man kills his wife for adultery and completely another when he is sure that this is the only right course of action because of his damned Namur and because it's totally lawful thing to do...

It's one thing when some person becomes mad and goes to some school to kill children and completely another when he knows that he will be heroized for that "brave and holy act"

It's one thing when pedophile rapes a ten year old child and another when pedophile pays money to get "married" on 10 year child and knows that he will never be punished for that, as this is completely lawful.

And so on....

Unless an ideology specifically calls for the crime, it's the people who are the root cause, not the ideology

I claim that Islam specifically calls for the crime... I could write my arguments, but I am lazy and I'll just copypaste text I am 100% agreeing with:

Spoiler: copypaste (click to show/hide)

The Muslim Game:

Most Muslims live peacefully, without harming others, so how can Islam be a violent religion?  If Islam were the religion of terrorists, then why aren’t most Muslims terrorists?

The Truth:

The same question can easily be turned around.  If Islam is a religion of peace, then why is it the only one that consistently produces religiously-motivated terrorist attacks each and every day of the year?  Why are thousands of people willing and able to cut off an innocent person’s head or fly a plane full of passengers into an office building while screaming praises to Allah?  Where’s the outrage among other Muslims when this happens… and why do they get more worked up over cartoons and hijabs?

Rather than trying to answer a question with a question, however, let's just say that the reason why most Muslims don't kill is that regardless of what Islam may or may not teach it's wrong to kill over religious beliefs.

Consider that many Muslims would not even think of amputating a thief's hand.  Does this mean that it is against Islam to do so?  Of course not!  In fact, it is clearly mandated in both the Qur'an (5:38) and the example set by Muhammad according to the Hadith (Bukhari 81:792).  As individuals, Muslims make their own choices about which parts of their religion they practice.

However, even though believers may think whatever they want about what Islam says or doesn't say, it doesn't change what Islam says about itself.  As a documented ideology, Islam exists independently of anyone's opinion.   As such, it may be studied objectively and apart from how anyone else practices or chooses to interprets it.

The Qur'an plainly teaches that it is not only proper to kill in the name of Allah in certain circumstances, but that it is actually a requirement.  Muslims who don't believe in killing over religion may be that way out of ignorance or because they are more loyal to the moral law written in their hearts than they are to the details of Muhammad’s religion.  Those who put Islam first or know Islam best know otherwise.

In fact, few Muslims have ever read the Qur'an to any extent, much less pursued an honest investigation of the actual words and deeds of Muhammad, which were more in line with hedonism, deception, power and violence than with moral restraint.  The harsh rules that Muslim countries impose on free speech to protect Islam from critique also prevent it from being fully understood.  In the West, many Muslims, devout or otherwise, simply prefer to believe that Islam is aligned with the Judeo-Christian principles of peace and tolerance, even if it means filtering evidence to the contrary.

It is no coincidence, however, that the purists who take Islam too heart are far more likely to become terrorists than humanitarians.  Those most prone to abandoning themselves to Muhammad's message without moral preconception are always the more dangerous and supremacist-minded.  They may be called ‘extremists’ or ‘fundamentalists,’ but, at the end of the day, they are also dedicated to the Qur’an and following the path of Jihad as mandated by Muhammad.

[GlyphGryph]

You never did explain how you figured Saudia Arabia, of all places, was somehow the center of Islam. And you continue to seemingly deny the existance of India and Indonesia, where most Muslims actually LIVE, and are really the goto places if you want to describe mainstream Islam or average muslims. Are you sure your problem is even actually with Muslims? Because sometimes is seems like you just don't like Arabs.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

You never did explain how you figured Saudia Arabia, of all places, was somehow the center of Islam

Heard about some minor city -  Mecca?
There are more Catholics in Brazil than Italy, but...

And you continue to seemingly deny the existance of India and Indonesia, where most Muslims actually LIVE

In India they are minority

As for Indonesia, after Dutch colonial period and Suharto's rule they got quite secular society and average Indonesian is not more Muslims than average European is Christian. There are huge difference in answering I am practicing Faith A to census question and actually practicing that faith

Proper, devoted Muslims do exist in Indonesia and do stuff like that:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings
Less devoted Indonesian Muslims create parties to introduce some Sharia laws in Indonesia.
Luckily Democratic parties win elections here, i hope Islamists will never get power in Indonesia

The Bible teaches that I should be stoned to death for leaving the faith.

Really want to comment that. Yep, that's exactly what Bible teaches + same for homosexuals, "immoral" womens and many other cases

But Jesus said that you have a right to throw rocks only if you are sinless yourself, so, we can say that he prohibited to throw rocks at people because no one is sinless. That is a very important concept of Christianity.

[scriver]

No, it isn't. Neither turning the other cheek, not casting the first stone, or giving away all your spare belongings to those who have less, the Christians who listened to Jesus were always the minority. If most of Christianity gave a damn about them, mainstream Christians would be full of pacifist communists, not authoritarian conservatives. But it isn't.

[shadenight123]

You know my previous post? The one nobody replied on?
That is the problem.

You ignore the posts that make sense.

Every book is written by man.
No mythical god came down and wrote it with mythical materials only he had access to.

It's ink and paper. Ink and paper.

And ink and paper written by men cannot be used as proof of anything.

Otherwise, excuse me, but I'll believe in Dungeons and Dragons. Now bow to the might of Hextor please, or be exterminated by the god of Slaughter Gruumsh.

That is the only reason the 'Faith' card is played.
There is no MATERIAL or SCIENTIFIC prove of NOTHING related to who 'wrote' the books first. God (whichever) wrote those book himself? Where's the proof? Proof please!

There isn't. Thus Bible, Quran, whatever-the-hell-it-is...are written by MEN.

And MEN are faulty of being power hungry. A pervert writes a book? You get the Erotic section of dungeons and dragons. You have a horror fan? Welcome Heroes of Horror.
You have someone who wants war and to rule the world? Hey there, there's the book on WAR.

So you see, using books no matter your faith as a pretext for anything, be it accuse or defense, is flawed. Completely and utterly flawed. You cannot use 'Quran' to kill for your faith, or even to defend your 'peace'. Just like using the 'Bible' as a pretext to stone gays isn't valid. And you know why? Because no God wrote it. Only men.

And Quoting Andrew Ryan...
A man chooses, a slave obeys.

If you choose to kill, because of a book or not, you are a monster, not a terrorist or a 'holy warrior of faith' but a psychopath who should be gunned down. If you follow the book, to the letter, you are a slave because you obey it without questioning it.

You can choose to follow a religion or not. You can choose to kill or not. But if you believe that killing is the answer because a god said so in a book then you're a madman. And if you believe in that, then I, proud believer of Hextor and Gruumsh, am entitled to slaughter you and enslave your entire race...because my book said so.

So you see, books are just that...
Books.

It's the madmen who can't discern reality from fantasy that are the problem.