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Author Topic: Warhammer 40k  (Read 14462 times)

aristabulus

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2013, 05:12:55 pm »

(Tyranid things)

My Nid swarm grew organically from having old Tyranid Attack and Space Hulk models, and a general resistance to the gimmicky nature of Nidzilla style lists.  Fluff-wise, I justify it as a vanguard, a first hooves on the ground type force.  Historically, I've done well with my swarm focused army, but I've also been neck deep in strategy games of all sorts for 25+ years, and a cyborg probability cruncher at the table.  Take all this with a block of salt.

My army is straightforward: lots of gaunts, lots of genestealers, lots of warriors.  I don't tend to gussy up my units much... I just put a lot of hooves on the ground, and the sheer numbers make everything a credible threat individually.  All together, I've often won the morale battle by the time deployment is done.

They can't ignore the gaunts.  If they get into close combat it's a tar pit, letting big hitters advance without shooting attrition, even though killing all the gaunts is pretty much guaranteed. (eventually)

They can't ignore the genestealers.  Between the vicious close combat profile and the brood intelligence (makes for good flanking), you absolutely don't want them to touch you.  By the statistical math, if you charge 10 'stealers into 10 marine joes, half the marines will be dead before they even get a chance to swing back.  I _love_ that I can run 20-man squads now; I've seen the colour drain from my opponent's face when I deploy those.  >:D

They can't ignore the warriors.  There's less of them, but between fire support / hitting harder in CC / staying stuck in longer (esp. now with 3 wounds), you really don't want them touching you either.

On the rare occasions I'm using a Carnifex or Tyrant, I run them simple and cheap, expecting them to be fire magnets until they fall.  If they survive long enough to stomp on something, it's pure gravy.

-----

As for buying advice, I'd say go with the battleforce and perhaps supplement with another box of warriors.  It'll keep your army balanced, and should bring you to about 1500 points if you field every model you have. Play with that for a while, and then figure out where to add more specialization.

The Endless Swarm is too many gaunts for a not-Apocalypse scaled game.  Also, having that many models waiting to be assembled is soul sucking. :P
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Hanslanda

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2013, 11:43:35 pm »

Hmmm. I'll probably follow your suggestion. I do want to get some zoanthropes or something fancy sooner or later, I like having those big, pretty things for my friend to look at. He generally makes the mistake of thinking that shooting at the big things will save him. Sure, if you kill all my synapse, I'm boned, but if you just kill my tyrant, you're going to get swarmed by the stuff you weren't shooting at.

Also, he's got so few units, and he wants to supplement the Space Marines he has with Grey Knights. o.O I will never be fighting a big force of enemies sadly.
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aristabulus

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2013, 09:50:39 am »

Zoanthropes are useful, but any player worth their salt will make them a priority target.  That's not to say you shouldn't use them... just don't rely on them.  Zoans are the only good AP artillery the Nids have; all the other good armour crackers are close combat, and all the other shooters are AP4 or worse.

If you're really that worried about synapse coverage, then warriors are what you want.  More flexible, more survivable in most situations, and better synapse footprint (especially with a large squad).  In my army the bulk of my points are in genestealers and warriors, so I only need to keep the gaunts covered the first turn or two (till they're stuck in or dead), then the synapse rules basically don't apply to me...  it's nice.  ^___^

Even when a unit gets out of synapse, it's not a disaster.  Lurkers squat and shoot if they can, bail for closest cover if they can't.  Feeders charge in, torpedoes be damned.  In the absence of details and objectives, that's generally okay.
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Hanslanda

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2013, 12:49:20 pm »

Feed is an awesome form of Synapse LoC, as you can use it to boost those Hormagaunt swarm attacks that little bit more. One more extra attack isn't much, but when it means your models are getting four attacks each, and there are thirty models in the brood... Well, Powered Armor only lets you save against so much.

Lurk is good for the longer ranged Tyranids, like the new Hive Guard, which, coincidentally, are the only other good ranged antitank option available to the Tyranids (Not counting a Carnifex or Tyrant with four Brainleech Devourers, but that is anti-EVERYTHING.). Zoanthropes are delicate despite their good invulnerable save (3++ IIRC) but the short range of their warp blast lance attack is... Not good. 18" is not enough breathing room when you're trying to gank a Baneblade. The Hive Guard and their Impaler Cannons get... Shit, only 24". Well.

More Genestealers it is. :P Even with the nerfs to Rending, Outflank, and the theft of half their biomorphs, Genestealers are STILL some BADASS assault troops. Besides, I already have a Broodlord, and they got psychic powers now that make them epic challenge-fighters. Get the Battleforce, split my Genestealers into three squads:

-Antitank one and two, with six 'stealers each.
-Anticharacter, with four genestealers (for now) and the broodlord. Might make these Ymgarl stealers for the upgraded ability to survive Overwatch fire and such, due to their low numbers.

Also, three Zoanthropes in a squad can now roll their psychic powers separately if you decide to trade their standard powers out. Which... Is fucking awesome.
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Well, we could put two and two together and write a book: "The Shit that Hans and Max Did: You Won't Believe This Shit."
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2013, 09:23:14 pm »

- Oh look the Tyranids can do amazing things in assault now, D'ave.
- Well, that's very nice for them, isn't it, B'ob.
- Indeed, perhaps they can even beat Orks if they charge, D'ave.
- Quite skilled indeed then, B'ob.
- I heard that some of them even beat Chaos in challenges, D'ave.
- That is impressive, B'ob!
- It's a real shame then, isn't it D'ave?
- You mean how they'll never make it to assault with us, B'ob?
- Yeah, they won't get to show off their skills, D'ave.
- A cryin' shame...
*heft pulse rifles*

Storm of Fire plus about 80 Kroot, two teams of pathfinders for markerlights, and a sniper drone team?

Yeah, good luck with that.

Hammerheads and Broadsides take care of synapse creatures, too. In an inverse of how they deal with tanks, is the funny part; normally they don't reliably pen but are very effective when they do, against Tyranids they reliably wound but have a difficult time Insta-killing. Submunitions and SMS deal with the little ones just fine. Seeker Missiles, hell, markerlights alone can deal with flyers('MY EYES', is how I imagine it going; they just have to be hit for a Grounded test, not wounded). Kroot Rifles can let off three shots each at 12", for the same price as an Ork. I can take Krootox to help with the tough ones, too. Crisis suits you just plain won't catch. And since distance with Template weapons doesn't matter for Overwatch...hey look six twin-linked flamers and six normal flamers as part of my supporting fire. Repulsor Impact Fields, or being equipped with Counterfire Defense Systems and using different weapons, only make it worse. And then we jump out, make some roasted insect-dinosaur-aliens, and jump back. Scorch and repeat. And then there's the Riptide...

That said, there are ways to deal with Tau. Just, melee swarms aren't one of them. We learned fighting Orks.
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Hanslanda

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2013, 09:45:19 pm »

Tyranid dakka is simple but surprisingly effective. :P Dakkafex is nasty, but only at 12". Better bet is a Winged Tyrant with dakka (four brainleech devourers). It means that I'm firing basically 12 plasma shots with an assault weapon.

Also, for the whole "We gots ranged thing" I present for your consideration, the motherfucking Mawloc/Trygon/Trygon Prime family. Let's say I go with the somewhat less impressive Mawloc, in addition to whatev's my army has lying about. Swarm of 'stealers and hormagaunts backed by warriors, say. Mawlocs. Their special deepstrike ability is that they don't die instantly when they land on enemy troops in deepstrike. Instead, all the units they 'landed' their base on, even partially, take a wound with no armor save, but a cover save allowed sometimes, and have to be moved to the edge of the template. If they can't move to the edge of the template, they die instantly.

Now you have a biotitan in the middle of your big pretty army full of shiny plasma rifles and tanks and shit, and it hasn't assaulted yet, which, IIRC, it gets to do. So it gets Feed which gives it Rage for being out of Synapse range, and immediately charges the nearest unit. Which it is inside of. It gets +2 attacks for the charge, plus it's base attacks of fucking 8, at strength 6, with a toughness of 6 and armor save of 3+. Naturally, you either lose or win the close combat, whatever, I don't care because I didn't send just ONE mawloc, and they're big tough bastards with six wounds. You kill it gloriously with fire and fury, and then realize how fucked you have become by this distractionzilla. Because now the 'stealers are within charge range. Or they infiltrated and have a turn worth respite to move closer.

Or I deploy the Deathleaper and keep everything else in reserve. Deathleaper has some nifty special rules that give it a cover save of 4+ on OPEN GROUND, and you have to use night fighting rules to determine if you can even SEE it, and it can just jump back into reserve whenever it wants. Sure if you see it, it's dead. The thing is a waif. But if you don't manage to kill it, I'm going to land a fuck pile of hormagaunts in Mycetic spores on you. Or a full army of warriors. IIRC, warriors can be deployed as HQ, Elite, or Troop. Maybe that was just 4th though, I'd have to check.

Obviously, neither solution is foolproof or certainly a victory. But I just want you to realize that Tyranids have more going for them than 'lol rush em'. I can deploy an entire army from deepstrike, or cover the table with a swarm so vast you will crap your pants when I finish setting my units down. (Hormagaunts are five points a model base.) Or I can bring in the Nidzilla list, fielding the equivalent of ALL BATTLETANKS ALL THE TIME. Not to mention, I have a few options for ranged weaponry. Nothing on the Tau of course, but still. Shooty Nids are a thing. :P
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2013, 10:29:39 pm »

No, here's what's more likely to happen.

You deep-strike on top of my fire warriors, and kill three or four and then charge them. And now, you are in the center of my army. Everything is within six inches of that unit. Storm of Fire lasts during your turn. Now you are getting hit by 80+ pulse rifle shots, whatever my pathfinders are armed with if they're nearby, whatever my crisis suits are armed with if they're nearby, and my vehicles get to fire overwatch if I put a Point Defense Targeting Relay on them. Oh yeah, and the Broadsides, with their twin-linked weapons. And markerlights work in overwatch now. And my Riptide gets to fire whatever he's armed with, if it's the Heavy Burst Cannon you're screwed, if it's the Ion Accelerator and it hits you're more so. If I had Longstrike, he might hit with his main weapon, either a Railgun or an Ion Cannon. It's dead. Now, the other one takes some damage from the overwatch, but probably doesn't die, and slaughter the Fire Warriors like the Tau they are. Now it's my shooting phase. It's dead. And now I direct the other two-thirds of my army, the anti-infantry bits, back to killing the Gaunts, and in all likelihood, using Zephyr's Grace to run as far away as I can while still shooting, ineffective or no, which is again assisted by markerlights being able to boost snap-shots. Or, another possibility, I counter your monstrous creature and substitute my own! Now I charge in my Riptide. It gets five wounds, can have Feel No Pain, a 5+ Invul save normally, can boost it to a 3+, and is considered a Monstrous Creature. It, too, has Strength 6 and Toughness 6. Did I mention it can take two drones for ablative wounds? Or that it shot at you before it charged, whether or not it's still Tau and has WS of 2 and three base attacks? Because now your big guy is stuck dealing with him. Meanwhile, I'm shooting the rest of your army, and by the time you finish him off, I'm ready to focus the heavy weapons on you.

Tau are one of the best armies for ignoring cover by the way, and my stealth suits have the same rules. Unfortunately, those night fighting rules don't exist anymore in that way, now it's just cover saves. And if it wasn't, Blacksun Filters give us Night Vision. And then I can put Interceptor on my Broadsides and/or Riptide. Especially the Riptide. Why? Because Large Blast Str 8 AP 2 hates everything, that's why. So does Heavy 12 Str 6 Ap 4 Rending. Even if it has Gets Hot.

Now let me tell you about the Tau's options.

First, the mostly-deepstrike list. The new supplement, the Farsight one, allows us to take Crisis suits as troops.

Crisis suits. As troops. And then Stealth suits or Riptides as my Elites. Use my Heavy Support choices and if I really want to, a Fire Warrior firebase to keep a presence on the Board. Outflank with my pathfinders and/or infiltrate my Stealth Suits with Homing Relays. Now my Crisis suits anything can deep strike within six inches of them, no scatter. So now you have Hammerheads and Broadsides and Sniper Drones and other ludicrous range heavy hitters hitting you with stuff from the other side of the board, while a bunch of suits playing keep-away with you shred your backfield.

On that note, of playing keep-away, the Tau are the worst army in Assault. We are, however, the best army at preventing you from getting there, barring certain ways to play Eldar. Case in point, give my Hammerhead Sensor Spines, you now cannot reach it, because it is on impassable terrain that it's skimmer base can fit on. Nothing else can fit there with it. So you have to shoot it. And it has a 4+ cover save from the Disruption Pods and the fact that either a. I move it half an inch back and half an inch forward, thus satisfying the requirements for Jink or b. we agree that impassable terrain gives cover equivalent to area terrain. Our suits can do it too, constantly, in the middle of your army. They have to make Dangerous terrain tests, but that's a 1 in 18 chance at best to deal one wound, and they have two.

Finally, lets get down to the real reason the Tau slaughter Tyranids.
All Sniper Rifles. All the time. My kroot, for a measly one point each, kicking them up to seven points a model, can now all fire sniper rounds. 24 inch, Heavy 1, Snipery goodness. Twenty in a squad. Maybe Krootox, too, for the giggles. And now? That Mawloc you're so proud of? Wounded on a 4+. Ignore it's armor save on a 6. And I don't just have one kroot squad, oh no, I have two or three, maybe. And they have markerlights so they're at BS 5. Kroot are truly amazing, especially since they have Stealth in forests, and move through cover. Hey look it's ironbark! 2+ cover save, thank you.
Then there's Sniper Drones. 48 inch range rapid fire sniper rifles that are buffed by Storm of Fire. Already at BS 5. And with Stealth. Stick 'em high up, in ruins, put an Ethereal on them to benefit from Majority Toughness 4 and Stealth, and 27 BS 5 Sniper shots go out at 24". Plus, the Marksmen can add markerlights on. So other units can kill stuff.

The trick to killing Tau is to assault. You cannot out-shoot them. Three Strength 9 shots, possibly four, for nine points, is simply ridiculous for killing infantry. A suicide suit kills tanks. Railguns excel at beating up MCs.

I know Tyranids have more than 'rush em', but their tactics usually devolve into it, and a swarm army of 'Gaunts, Warriors, and 'Stealers, is primarily a 'rush em' army.

So, for what I can do, I can flood the board with battlesuits, having enough that I can use them as meatshields and tar-pits if I want(the equivalent of six space marines worth for 66 points is pretty good...), I can go all Mech and have everything mobile enough to run away from you, then when you finally think you have me cornered, jump on top of the building and flat out for the objectives(HAHAHA Tyranids can't flat out!), my personal favorite is pulse rifle spam, in which I have 72 Fire Warriors in marching formation, with pathfinders giving ML support, Piranhas forming mobile cover, and crisis suits dealing with enemy armor. Hey look 216 Strength 5 Shots. Most at BS 5. Did I mention Leadership 10 and the ability to get Feel No Pain, Stubborn, or Run and shoot? Perhaps the Supporting Fire would interest you? Or maybe the possibility of fielding, instead, my own swarm of 120 Kroot and 60 Hounds? Perhaps I will outflank them. All of them. They get Acute Senses, after all.

I don't really have options for melee, as such, but Kroot can work as a buffer(their weapons are AP 5 and they have WS 4, even if they're only one attack each. Kroot hounds have two, and are cheaper. Plus, they have initiative five), and my suits/Vespids can get/have Hit & Run. Initiative 4 Drones and 5 Vespid helps.

Melee Tau aren't a thing, though...
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Hanslanda

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2013, 10:43:00 pm »

Basically what you're saying is that Tau's weakness is assault, and you won't let me assault, and I'm not going to waste my time arguing theoretical ways to get into assault and then have you throw out your 'what-ifs' to prevent that, ad infinitum. Every army has it's weakness. Tau is assault, Tyranids is some strange combination of Synapse and hideously expensive big critters and lack of extra-long range guns. That's nice that we settled that, and I'm so glad you love your nigh-invincible army so much. I love mine too. :P Also, glad that the reputation wasn't undeserved.
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Well, we could put two and two together and write a book: "The Shit that Hans and Max Did: You Won't Believe This Shit."
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aristabulus

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2013, 11:25:57 pm »

Basically what you're saying is ...

I think what he's really saying is that rolepgeek's Korea is Best Korea, and he's offended that we did not immediately prostrate ourselves when he deigned to speak.  *snort*

Hans, I've been playing 40k longer than he's been alive, across 5 editions.  That's something to ponder.

I will say no more on this matter... so pen no rebuttals, and let's get back to regular discussion.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2013, 11:36:35 pm »

Oh, we're not invincible.

Like I said, we die horribly in Assault. My first game with Tau, 500 points, the enemy just had two assault marine squads. I died from Sweeping advance before I even got to roll for reserves, and managed to kill 3 of the 10 space marines.

Our weakness depends on the list, like any other army. Mostly in the form of 'people don't target the actually pretty squishy fire warriors, who are also our only scoring units' tends to make people not choose targets well.

With Tau, as or against, it's about Target Priority. The Riptide is insanely tough. So don't shoot it. Shoot the markerlights making it able to hit you all of the time. The Hammerhead is pretty hard to kill. So don't, it actually has poor fire power if you're running a heavy infantry list(unless it has Ion Cannon, where it excels...but it can't have both). Again, shoot the markerlights.

SHOOT THE MARKERLIGHTS

I feel like Tyranid's weakness is mostly caused by Synapse, mostly in the way of you have to keep everything near each other to benefit from it. And they do, really benefit. But it makes you vulnerable to blast weapons, more so than most armies.

Sorry if I went off in a tangent... :-[
I basically meant to say that Tau have options too. Mostly because of our nice shiny new codex.

Also, the Tau out-adapting Tyranids is dumb, even to me. It's like Space Marines out-teching Tau, or anyone ever out-shooting us. The reason we suck at melee is because we gave melee up in favor of ranged weapons. No other army, even Orks, is specialized as much as we are in the ranged/melee back-and-forth. So the trick is to force us into assault.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2013, 11:38:39 pm »

Basically what you're saying is ...

I think what he's really saying is that rolepgeek's Korea is Best Korea, and he's offended that we did not immediately prostrate ourselves when he deigned to speak.  *snort*

Hans, I've been playing 40k longer than he's been alive, across 5 editions.  That's something to ponder.

I will say no more on this matter... so pen no rebuttals, and let's get back to regular discussion.
...I'm sorry I like my army, then. And that I would deign to consider tactics for a game when I'm fresh and don't have to unlearn old rules to learn new ones.

You say no rebuttals, so I won't give any more. But if you're going to say something like that, don't count on someone not responding.
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Hanslanda

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2013, 10:29:34 am »

I kinda sorta want to get an Imperial Guard army, because Imperial Guardsmen are about the most heroically badass motherfuckers to ever walk, considering what they'll generally face on a given day. And of course, Ollanius Pius.

BUT I also love my Tyranid army and want to make it bigger, as it's only about 1000pts right now. Really, I just want like three or four different armies, and that is a hideously expensive 'want'. :/
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2013, 10:35:50 am »

I know the feeling. I want to get an Eldar and IG detachment to represent Eldar allies and Gue'vesa, but my current army barely scratches 850 points if I kit everything out as much as possible.
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Hanslanda

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2013, 10:48:18 am »

Thinking on it, if I gave all my stuff the maximum biomorphs possible, I MIGHT get up to 1200, but most of that extra 200 points would get slaughtered by the first salvo that fired upon my gaunts, or would be useless, because no sane person is going to enter close combat with an Acid Blood, Toxic Miasma, Regenerating, furious-charging, poison weaponed Hive Tyrant with Preferred Enemy Everything that happens to be toting three boneswords and a lash whip. (You strike at initiative one! Also, all my attacks are instant death on everything! Also, I used Paroxysm and now you have WS/BS 1 for the rest of my turn and your next turn!) Well, there are some things that could and would take it on in hand to hand, but there are MUCH better ways to deal with it.

Also, I have this secret desire to buy an IG army, leave a good portion of them normal, and make the rest into Genestealer hybrids, but sadly I'm not that good at modeling yet.
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Well, we could put two and two together and write a book: "The Shit that Hans and Max Did: You Won't Believe This Shit."
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aristabulus

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Re: Warhammer 40k
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2013, 11:09:38 am »

... but most of that extra 200 points would get slaughtered by the first salvo that fired upon my gaunts...

Yeah, that's exactly why I favour large mobs of plain bugs rather than fancy tricked out units.  Gaunts can occasionally kill stuff, but for me they're  a meat shield primarily, a tar pit secondly.  Across the army as a whole, there just aren't a lot of solid armour saves.  Bury them with sheer numbers...  'tis the nature of the beast.
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If iron is to become steel, it must feel fire! --ancient Dwarven proverb

What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  --Thulsa Doom
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