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Total Members Voted: 13

[Ogdibus]

We, as a society, condemn women who try to build up their physical strength because it interferes with conventional beauty standards. We marginalize and never televise the multitudes of women who have builds amply suited to the battlefield. We perpetuate the myth of the physically incapable woman, institutionalize it using the very myths we perpetuate as facts to justify it, and then turn around and blame it on the very women we are marginalizing.

I doubt this paragraph.

It's easier to doubt when you don't have to live it.

Seriously, you think there's no sexual dimorphism in humans? Are women also shorter on average because beauty standards don't let them grow tall?

Reexamine what you just said, taking into account the way that creatures select their mates.

Well yeah, that's why we have sexual dimorphism, but that's neither here nor there. The question is whether it exists, not it's origin.

So why ask the second question if it's "neither here nor there"?

[Loud Whispers]

Reexamine what you just said, taking into account the way that creatures select their mates.

So genetics are also oppressive? Heterosexuality too? This makes women short and petite?

Being physically fit makes you more attractive on that superficial level. The opposite would be observed if there was a singular overarching idea concept of beauty. It is after all, subjective.

It's easier to doubt when you don't have to live it.

Doubt is the beginning of understanding. Do describe in detail please [new thread or continue on this derail?]

[Ogdibus]

Reexamine what you just said, taking into account the way that creatures select their mates.

So genetics are also oppressive? Heterosexuality too? This makes women short and petite?

Being physically fit makes you more attractive on that superficial level. The opposite would be observed if there was a singular overarching idea concept of beauty. It is after all, subjective.

It's easier to doubt when you don't have to live it.

Doubt is the beginning of understanding. Do describe in detail please [new thread or continue on this derail?]

Genetics can be the result of oppression.

Acceptance is the beginning of understanding.  Doubt is the next step, and only works if you are receptive to the possibility of new ideas.

[misko27]

So, I am in favor of it! Yay! Hooray!


*looks at previous comments*


Ahh, the Narcissism of Small differences. Something Freud got right.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

And while your commendable dismissal of weak-willed sniveling drama cases is wonderful, it truly is, but unless they comprise world armies that's hardly relevant. I suppose psychology and the army's poor treatment of it is something to discuss, but probably for a more related thread.

I said that because you fail to see the connection between the dismissal of the entirety of a gender due to preconceived notions and narrow near-anecdotal 'studies.' [Stress on girls and boys age 12-17]

I know alot of weak-backed, easily-stressed, stamina-less men, does that mean they [men] shouldn't be allowed combat roles too because I know a few who aren't qualified? And men can get raped, too, so it's dangerous for them to be in the military.

I'm being snarky because it makes little sense in an egalitarian society to enforce such gender roles on tenuous things such as post-menopausal women being susceptible to stress.

[Leafsnail]

Quick recap of what we've learnt so far:
- The Iraqi ghost militia is the single biggest threat to women's rights
- Sexual violence against women isn't a big issue but it is bad for PR
- Gotdamnmiracle is pretty close to qualifying to be two soldiers
- Cocaine fuelled rats probably would not make a very good submarine crew (although I will be pitching the idea to Adult Swim)
- The Axis powers are surprisingly progressive when it comes to selecting tank crews

[misko27]

Quick recap of what we've learnt so far:
- Cocaine fuelled rats probably would not make a very good submarine crew (although I will be pitching the idea to Adult Swim)
- The Axis powers are surprisingly progressive when it comes to selecting tank crews

Alright then. Then let the war continue!

[Loud Whispers]

Genetics can be the result of oppression.
Acceptance is the beginning of understanding.  Doubt is the next step, and only works if you are receptive to the possibility of new ideas.

Yes. And Eugenics is dead in the modern world.

Also I'm afraid that's not how to garner understanding.
You're telling me that genetics are [can?] be the result of prolonged cruelty, and to understand I must need only accept it.
And by accepting it I can doubt it.
And by doubting it I understand it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

'Doubt being the beginning of understanding,' is paraphrased from this guy. He has nice hair and good logic.
When people doubt, they are showing that they are not totally convicted on their views. When there is no firm conviction, that's where you can come in and present facts, to establish a new or already existing view.
I could just accept that now as fact, and reaffirm it as so, but now I still wouldn't understand for the life of me why.

I know alot of weak-backed, easily-stressed, stamina-less men, does that mean they [men] shouldn't be allowed combat roles too because I know a few who aren't qualified?

Are you talking about men as a whole or just physically incapable men?
Because it is rather easy to answer. Pass the test, you are eligible. I don't quite see where I made the mistake of dismissing an entire gender over trivial generalizations.

[Ogdibus]

Genetics can be the result of oppression.
Acceptance is the beginning of understanding.  Doubt is the next step, and only works if you are receptive to the possibility of new ideas.

Yes. And Eugenics is dead in the modern world.

Also I'm afraid that's not how to garner understanding.
You're telling me that genetics are [can?] be the result of prolonged cruelty, and to understand I must need only accept it.
And by accepting it I can doubt it.
And by doubting it I understand it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

'Doubt being the beginning of understanding,' is paraphrased from this guy. He has nice hair and good logic.
When people doubt, they are showing that they are not totally convicted on their views. When there is no firm conviction, that's where you can come in and present facts, to establish a new or already existing view.
I could just accept that now as fact, and reaffirm it as so, but now I still wouldn't understand for the life of me why.

I know alot of weak-backed, easily-stressed, stamina-less men, does that mean they [men] shouldn't be allowed combat roles too because I know a few who aren't qualified?

Are you talking about men as a whole or just physically incapable men?
Because it is rather easy to answer. Pass the test, you are eligible. I don't quite see where I made the mistake of dismissing an entire gender over trivial generalizations.

No, I didn't say those things.

[Loud Whispers]

No, I didn't say those things.

Then when you have said 'oppression, acceptance, understanding, doubt,' and being 'receptive,' they have not meant what you think they mean.

[Ogdibus]

No, I didn't say those things.

Then when you have said 'oppression, acceptance, understanding, doubt,' and being 'receptive,' they have not meant what you think they mean.

Your putting words in my mouth, then telling me that I don't know what understand what I am saying.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

- The Axis powers are surprisingly progressive when it comes to selecting tank crews

Because it is rather easy to answer. Pass the test, you are eligible. I don't quite see where I made the mistake of dismissing an entire gender over trivial generalizations.

That's why it's difficult to argue the issue. Immovable preconceived notions. It's easy to handwave when you haven't gleaned that women aren't glass dolls, it's hard for me to see such things through a lens like that anymore. Mostly because I've gotten my ass handed to me by plenty of warrior women in my day.

While I appreciate playing devil's advocate, time's not now, LW.

Egalitarian societies cannot enforce gender roles on such basis.

[Vector]

Make no assumptions on who you speak to, the words spoken should be all that are judged.

If you see any ad hominems, point 'em out to me.  All I'm saying is that it's one thing to say "I can't find a good scholarly article," and another thing to try to pass me something about cocaine in rats and say that it explains why human women shouldn't be on subs.  And a list of "female health problems" that aren't exactly female health problems.

And statements about how women aren't capable of working 16-hour days.


I can't find the article on anemia at the moment--I last saw it maybe a year and a half ago, and I didn't do a good job of holding onto the information.

[pisskop]

Make no assumptions on who you speak to, the words spoken should be all that are judged.

If you see any ad hominems, point 'em out to me.  All I'm saying is that it's one thing to say "I can't find a good scholarly article," and another thing to try to pass me something about cocaine in rats and say that it explains why human women shouldn't be on subs.  And a list of "female health problems" that aren't exactly female health problems.

And statements about how women aren't capable of working 16-hour days.


I can't find the article on anemia at the moment--I last saw it maybe a year and a half ago, and I didn't do a good job of holding onto the information.

Nobody said these things.  Nobody said woman aren't capable of doing the work.  People are saying that if they want the job they should pass the same tests as the men.

And cocaine in rats, my bad.  Some of us still have classes to attend.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Nobody said these things.  Nobody said woman aren't capable of doing the work.  People are saying that if they want the job they should pass the same tests as the men.

Then after the truly standardized entry tests are implemented it's women's health and mental health [and, ultimately, the rape arguement] that gets dragged into why they aren't able to serve equally alongside men.