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[Vector]

No.  I've just got a prolific oven.

Seriously, why are you looking into me?  None of your comments have been behaviorally based.  They're all about little flavortext things, like you've got no point of view on what I'm actually doing.  You've voted me twice and asked a bunch of questions, and pretty much tried to pass this off as your right to activelurk.  You haven't even pressed your supposed targets, scumbucket.  Not even "hey, come here and play or I'll lynch you."  You're just sitting here.

[Lenglon]

...
but I have my vote on and multiple questions out to Ottofar, and Tiruin is going to be modkilled at this rate so there's not much point in pressing her.
...
but how am i activelurking if i'm asking "a bunch of questions"?
...
but hasn't flavor been specifically mentioned as being relevant this game? and something to be paying attention to?
...
but
...
Fine. I can make some extra time for a quick review (the game hasn't been going on all that long so far), and yeah, I need to put some more effort in. Food now, but i'll follow up afterwards and pipe in on the merry-go-round of blame we have running.

[lordnincompoop]

Votecount:

Dariush	- 0 -
Deathsword	- 1 -	griffinpup
griffinpup	- 1 -	Leafsnail
Leafsnail	- 0 -
Lenglon	- 1 -	Vector
notquitethere	- 2 -	Toaster, Ottofar
Okami No Rei	- 1 -	zombie urist
Ottofar	- 1 -	Lenglon
Tiruin	- 0 -
Toaster	- 1 -	notquitethere
ToonyMan	- 0 -
Vector	- 0 -
zombie urist	- 3 -	ToonyMan, Dariush, Okami No Rei
-
Not Voting	- 2 -	Deathsword, Tiruin
No Lynch	- 0 -
-
Extend	- 0 -
Shorten	- 0 -

Tiruin has been prodded.

The Day will end in 9 hours, on the 8th of August, 8PM GMT.

4 players required to Extend, 7 to Shorten. 4 Extends left for the Day.

[Vector]

Extend.

[Tiruin]

Tiruin: where are you?

Busy making a mock-clinical laboratory floor plan as well as managing budgeting and accreditation for project.

That being said, I'm now free.

...

Goodness that's a lot of text. This took a lot longer for me to compile, and sorry for being late (really REALLY wanted to ensure I'm free x__x)

Anyway, did a list of comparison on whether the questions were answered, and I've a lot of nitpicking to push.

Also, that prod was a nice prod (sorry).

Edit: PPE Lenglon, Toaster, Vector..argh, this post should be after here.


NQT

"Bonjour everyone! My name is Katherine Boulengier and I am a journeyman carpenter, new to this ville. Alors! It is most effroyable to be quarantined like so, and our best hope is to find zese mauvais witches as rapidly as possible. To facilitate zis, I suggest we all share our names and professions."

"Alright, how is sharing one's identity even going to help here? Or possibly track who is a witch or not? If these things were such, then the inquisition would be easily finding them by now. Unless it is the inquisition, which I doubt.

"Still. My name is Gillette Doulze, an aid to my father's inn. I am not from this town, but on errands from my father and sternly advised by my mother. Local marketplace groceries and such. This seems to be a very strange point you're making. Meaning that you didn't continue on this point you made from earlier."

Now, earlier I said I was suspicious about the claims, aye? Here's my suspicion. While this does avert the notion of people not knowing each other (and on the notion of being a common point given the idea that scum only know alignment difference and all that), this is strange in itself in asking the name and profession and connecting it with directly finding witches.

What would you hope to gain other than knowing our name and probable profession?


Deathsword

Tiruin, if you were in the scum team and part of your team claimed scum, would you do the same?

...Why should I, in the first place? (No.) Was this context derived from that one Mafia we both played a while ago? Why ask this type of question here?

Vector

2. Scum are always role-playing.  Too much roleplaying in a game like this can be a sign of scumminess.

Is this a definitive? Because I loved roleplaying in any role I had. Or was your point on the 'too much' area?

. . . To the idea that scum are always playing a role?

..I don't get it.

Everyone's playing a role here. And that's only one example far in the past (in a really nice game) which I think lacks enough context to be definitive.

It pokes on confidence and rolling in it though, but I see the point you've got there. It's in the wording, is what I saw. Anyway, why does it seem that from that post and those proceeding it that you've a definitive viewpoint towards such an act despite your evidence being...years ago?

What do you see in Roleplaying in Mafia?


Okami

notquitethere - Rolefishing already?  I'll bite.  I am Colin Fleury, Apprentice Cooper.  So, why exactly do you want this information, Witch?  You need it for your spells and rituals?

...What kind of question is this? Redirecting the logic on its point.

Why did you start your day with a vote in favor of casual talk? A soft point, I mean.

Also, after all the pertinent ideas you have here, you branch off and prod at Deathsword for trivial reasons. Why is that?

Lenglon

Tiruin: What past experience do you have with witches? What past experience does <Name of Tiruin's Character> have with witches?

*reads role again*
Me or my character have no experience with witches (never played as one, or as a scumteam as one, but read stuff on them however the context of witch shifts from scumteam to mason team..I think it was a Meph game). While it doesn't explicitly say things about experiencing or coming in ohysical, mental or spiritual contact with witches, I blame errands--the only things I heard about witches were from rumors. Plague, bad omens from travelers and the occasional drunken person spouting words of fluff.

...So nothing at all. Why're you asking me this?


Leafsnail: What's your take on the whole name/profession claim?

LNCP/Mod: What's the time of day today, the year, the current weather (and last week's weather) and recent history of this town--imports, exports, and other significant notes on it? I'm asking this more of a general information prod than not.

Who leads this town?

Still re-reading, apologies for my scant presence. Extend

GAH PPE  from Leafsnail's post.

Tiruin
"Madame (or is it Monsieur), you have been awfully quiet and zere is less than 24 hours until someone hangs..."

"I've been crying and cradling my only possessions in the meantime, thanks. No, it's my fault. Sorry."

But yes, really sorry. Sleepless nights are one thing that prevented me from this. :/

[Vector]

The emphasis was indeed on "too much," and scum are always roleplaying as town.  There's always multiple layers of pretense with them, in a way that we don't see in town players.

The fact that my example is from years ago is really rather insignificant in this instance; the memorable games I played were all rather long ago, and I don't think that part of the B12 understanding has changed all that much.  This is what I'm trying to say:

Sometimes scum engage in roleplaying in order to avoid pretending to scumhunt.  In a sense, they're "roleplaying" either way--pretending to be town, or pretending to be Madame Agnes de Chantfleury or whomever, but the one I'm speaking to is the latter, the full-hearted engagement with flavortext over straight-up mechanics.

[lordnincompoop]

LNCP/Mod: What's the time of day today, the year, the current weather (and last week's weather) and recent history of this town--imports, exports, and other significant notes on it? I'm asking this more of a general information prod than not.

It's daytime, and sunny and warm.

The year is 1489.

Import and export lists and goods through-flow isn't common knowledge.

Who leads this town?

Don't make me repeat this again.

[Jim Groovester]

The Day will end in 9 hours, on the 8th of August, 8PM GMT.

As a point of correction, the day ends in 19 hours from the time this post is made.

[zombie urist]

pfp extend

[griffinpup]

Toaster:

This is a fairly weak attack.  The game's only been open ~40 hours- how much content should he [DeathSword] have at this point?  I smell pretend pressure.

The problem isn't about the amount of content.  The problem is about the type.  He obviously hasn't even thought about leaving RVS, so one would assume that he actually cares about RVS and gains valuable things from RVS.  But his posts also don't show that.  He seems to not even care about the RVS questions he asked.


DeathSword:

I will be extremely busy today and will only un-busy tomorrow afternoon. There won't be any trouble posting from that point.

Wait what?
First of all, you completely avoid my questions.  You do claim to be busy though, so this isn't scummy by itself.
But second, you are going to be gone for the rest of what might very well be day one and you didn't throw out an extend!?  Why not?    You still don't have a semblance of a case yet.  Were you comfortable with the current lynch target at the time of writing this or were you planning on getting back before the deadline with enough time to change something?
Leafsnail:

griffinpup 1. it feels like you're making a token contribution, 2. with a weak attack on  Dariush and 3. vote buried on Deathsword.  Most of it seems like quibbling rather than scumhunting.

Umm... OK.  A... few things.
1. Define what you mean by a 'token contribution'.
2. You are sorely mistaken.  I don't believe I ever attacked Dariush, weakly or otherwise.  But perhaps I missed it.  Please quote my "weak attack" on Dariush.
3. My vote isn't 'buried' on Deathsword.  I voted him once over a question he missed, and then left it on him for one more post in which I asked him several questions about the way he played RVS and his lack of content or a vote. (for me this was the awkward phase of getting out of RVS.  I'm not so good at that.  I'm fine at RVS, and fine at playing the rest of the game, but this transition sucks)  Since he hasn't yet answered my questions, and the day is being extended, my vote is staying on him.

And sorry guys.  I'm going to be gone from tomorrow to about Monday or Tuesday.  Admittedly, repelling is far more fun then this, but it is unfortunate that I have to be gone for so long, so extend.

[Okami No Rei]

griffinpup

Ya. That's easy.  The person who is lynched claims before being lynched.  This makes the alignment shown upon flipping irrelevant.

Thank you.


zombie urist

You originally voted NQT for rolefishing, which makes this entire section look like backtracking.

Rolefishing was the simplest scummy interpretation of his actions (though not necessarily the only one, or even the scummiest one - see my response to Leafsnail below), so it was the one I went with when I started questioning him.  I wanted him to defend himself by offering a pro-town justification for his actions (the same thing I'm looking for from you regarding the accusation of tunneling, by the way, which you've yet to provide), but I would be thoroughly ashamed of myself if I had not taken the opportunity to accuse someone of being a witch for the first time in the game with some dramatic flair.

"Potentially" has no real meaning in mafia. Everything is potentially scummy. Its the same as saying someone is possibly scum.

Arguing semantics is a waste of time.  If you don't understand my choice of words, please ask for clarification.

Also if anything I think discussing the matter would allow scum more opportunity to dismiss the idea.

We outnumber them.  Dismissing it would only draw attention to themselves.

ONR's post was pretty scummy and I didn't notice anyone else being scummy. Also I hoped to kick the game out of RVS.

It was originally a pressure vote based on the stuff I pointed out in the post.

Now who's the one backtracking?  Did you vote me because you'd found scum and wanted to end RVS, or did you vote me as an RVS pressure vote based on some minor issues in my second post?

If you lived in town all your life, then you must have grown up in town.

I did.  My flavor is ambiguous on that point.  I now have clarification from LNCP.

I still don't think I was tunneling. >_>

You still haven't explained what you do think you were doing.  That should help.

Just for fun please show me where you tunnelled to end RVS.

Beginner's Mafia XXIII - One of my debut games under this name.  Coincidentally an LNCP game.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I was scum that game.

Also now I do believe you are scum. The irony.

Why?

RVS questions are lazy. The first two questions are both basically the same and I'll also say why I don't like them later. Third question is a joke. Also a joke question to the mod. Also not included here is a repeat question of Vector's.

I should take offense to that.  I put a good deal of thought into those questions.

First, the question to Vector, which you dismiss as a simple repeat question.  While repeating someone's question back to them is a relatively common RVS technique, I don't recall ever seeing the particular scenario in which one person asks a question of another, followed by a third-party repeating the question back to the questioner.  I wanted to see what sort of reaction I'd get to that particular question coming from an unexpected vector.  In addition, it was a good question, and I wanted to hear her thoughts on the matter.

I don't like the first two questions because they both have an obvious answer.

Of course the answer's obvious.  That's the first big clue that I've ulterior motives to asking the question.

Yes as both town and SK are uninformed, all information should be considered for all actions.  There's really no interesting points suggested by the answer barring extreme situations. Its like asking to show work for 1+1.

Barring extreme situations.  Those are the key words.

So the answer isn't so simple as "Yes, of course."  You know that.
The answer is "Yes, but..."
The answer is "Yes, unless..."
The answer is "Yes, however..."

You like things simple.  Black and white.  You automatically shrug off mere possibilities, focusing on the probable, the likely, and the absolute.

I don't know you.  I don't know griffinpup.  Your answers to that simple, "lazy" question told me how you think about the game, which will allow me to better read your play further down the road.

Deathsword, griffinpup, Leafsnail, notquitethere - All of you have posted.  None of you have voted.  Please explain why.

This is also lazy, especially since not voting during that stage of the game is not uncommon.

That question was indeed an afterthought.  I noticed the long list of "Not Voting" players and it struck me as odd when well over half of the players had posted by then.  I threw the question out in order to clear up my confusion.  My impression of the RVS meta-play is that everyone is expected to have a vote on someone almost all the time.  I'm beginning to suspect that has changed at some point while I wasn't looking.

I also don't like meta reads as a reason. Meta reads can be easily faked, unless you can provide evidence of games in which you are basing this on.

I do like meta reads.  Meta reads can only be faked if you're aware they exist.  As soon as someone mentions them, the cat's out of the bag, and they're useless in future games.  So, the meta game of Mafia, the ability to win consistently, depends on soaking up as much meta-information on your fellow players as possible, in order to improve your reads and to improve your ability to manipulate their perception of you, of others, and even of themselves.

This is one of the reasons I like Bay12 Mafia.  Most of the core players here seem to understand that, even if only at a basic instinctual level.  It keeps the game fresh and interesting, even though you tend to see the same faces in every game, since everyone's meta-game has to constantly evolve in order to stay on top.

Using questions to get reads IMO is not the point of RVS, but whatever.

Using questions to get reads is the point of RVS.


Ottofar

So, this is scummy if NQT is scum? Make up your mind on that, waffling is a scumtell.

It's scummy at first glance.  I want to know what he was thinking when he decided to do that. I can think of a few reasons a Town player would act as he did, and I want to know which, if any, he's using to justify the action.


notquitethere

[OK Okami, the usual way of going about RVS may well be to start your post with a random vote on someone, but that's not the only legitimate way to start. My two-part strategy was: 1. ask the same question of everyone, 2. follow up (with a vote) on the most suspicious of the responses. Are you trying to tell me that this is a worse way to start a game than randomly voting? A random vote has almost no pressure to it.]

Thank you.

[As I just explained to griffinpup, the possibility that there wouldn't be a consensus never even occured to me. This has be borne out by the fact that only one player has refused to give their name and profession. Given the nature of the set-up, this information is to the manifest benefit of the town to be shared.]

So you didn't think about it, you just acted.  Not what I wanted to hear, but a somewhat acceptable response.  Thank you.


Leafsnail

@ONR: your logic still doesn't really work.  If softclaiming is something scum need to be pressured into then how is it scummy for NQT to readily claim?  If NQT is scum wouldn't that imply that softclaiming is desirable to them?

NQT claiming early muddies the issue, since no consensus was reached.  Scum can hide behind indignant or hesitant Town, lessening the pressure.  If we'd instead decided to flavor claim as a group, scum would be forced to join in or stand out.

On the flipside, by offering up NQT as a sacrificial lamb (who may happen to have the least significant flavour), they not only provide a reasonable smokescreen for not revealing their own flavour, they also encourage the rest of the town to claim, giving them more information.  (I'd like to note here that scum had a whole night to discuss their opening play, so I wouldn't put any gambits past them.)

Anyway, now that NQT's responded to the question, I'd say he's telling the truth.  "I didn't consider it." is a weak, yet honest, excuse, and I can't really do anything more with it than admonish him for not thinking before acting.


Tiruin

...What kind of question is this? Redirecting the logic on its point.

I agreed with NQT's action in spirit, but disagreed with how he went about it.  I've discussed this ad nauseum already, and you can find my responses on the subject here, here, and above in this very post.  Please read them and let me know if you have any specific issues with my responses, or if you have any concerns that have not yet been addressed.

Why did you start your day with a vote in favor of casual talk? A soft point, I mean.

Because I always start my day with a vote.  I like to play aggressively, and I believe that a vote idle is a vote wasted.  I was also under the impression that this behavior was standard for RVS stage, and I am a bit confused about why people are questioning it.  Would you care to enlighten me?

Not sure what you mean by "A soft point".  Please clarify. 

Also, after all the pertinent ideas you have here, you branch off and prod at Deathsword for trivial reasons. Why is that?

Because this is a Very Serious Game, and I like to subvert that by injecting humor into my posts periodically.  Also, I was disappointed that I was not the first to make a Monty Python reference in this particular game.

[Toaster]

NQT:

Toaster

Bahahaha.  Oh, NQT, you crack me up.

[You have the gall to accuse me of deflecting and then this is your response to my follow up? If you're going to keep your vote parked then make a real argument as to why I am a witch.]

Damn skippy it is.  Not sure what your point is, since you were deflecting and I was blowing off your ridiculous statement, which are two separate things.

In any case, I'm voting you because after I threw a question pertaining to "not from town = anti town" at you, you then deflected attention away from yourself.  Before I could even respond you throw it right back at me.  Basically, you flipped out over my simple question.  You then threaten me with said ridiculous statement, which is just laughable.


Tiruin:

NQT

"Bonjour everyone! My name is Katherine Boulengier and I am a journeyman carpenter, new to this ville. Alors! It is most effroyable to be quarantined like so, and our best hope is to find zese mauvais witches as rapidly as possible. To facilitate zis, I suggest we all share our names and professions."

"Alright, how is sharing one's identity even going to help here? Or possibly track who is a witch or not? If these things were such, then the inquisition would be easily finding them by now. Unless it is the inquisition, which I doubt.

"Still. My name is Gillette Doulze, an aid to my father's inn. I am not from this town, but on errands from my father and sternly advised by my mother. Local marketplace groceries and such. This seems to be a very strange point you're making. Meaning that you didn't continue on this point you made from earlier."

Now, earlier I said I was suspicious about the claims, aye? Here's my suspicion. While this does avert the notion of people not knowing each other (and on the notion of being a common point given the idea that scum only know alignment difference and all that), this is strange in itself in asking the name and profession and connecting it with directly finding witches.

What would you hope to gain other than knowing our name and probable profession?

I find it odd that you vote NQT for asking for claims then immediately proceed to claiming yourself anyway.  Why is asking for it scummy when you're willing to do it anyway?


Griffin:  Who do you suspect other than Deathsword?  Why?

[Toaster]

Also extend

[lordnincompoop]

Votecount:

Dariush	- 0 -
Deathsword	- 1 -	griffinpup
griffinpup	- 1 -	Leafsnail
Leafsnail	- 0 -
Lenglon	- 1 -	Vector
notquitethere	- 3 -	Toaster, Ottofar, Tiruin
Okami No Rei	- 1 -	zombie urist
Ottofar	- 1 -	Lenglon
Tiruin	- 0 -
Toaster	- 1 -	notquitethere
ToonyMan	- 0 -
Vector	- 0 -
zombie urist	- 3 -	ToonyMan, Dariush, Okami No Rei
-
Not Voting	- 1 -	Deathsword
No Lynch	- 0 -
-
Extend	- 4 -	Vector, Tiruin, zombie urist, Toaster
Shorten	- 0 -

The Day will end on Saturday, the 10th of August, 8PM GMT.

4 players required to Extend, 7 to Shorten. 3 Extends left for the Day.

[Lenglon]

Leafsnail: why are you making lots of small posts back to back instead of individual larger ones?

Tiruin: I was wondering if everyone here had some form of motivation to be enthusiastic in the witch hunt, similar to my own. is that the case?

Vector: re-read done, I'm tired, and I don't see enough to form a case on anyone, although I still dislike Ottofar the most. you've been pressing me since the very first post of the game, why? It feels like you're trying to manipulate me for some kind of agenda, but I haven't identified what that agenda is.

NQT: you have been more active here than you were in the revolution, and greatly changed your style and attitude, why?

Toony: your claim is very distinctive, are you a third-party?

Leafsnail: how does the town benefit from having one person who does not claim when everyone else does?

ONR: you said that you don't know ZU or GriffPup because you haven't played with them, and as a result questioned them with the goal of figuring out how they think. why aren't you questioning me? do you understand how I think?