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[Soadreqm]

this "gamer" demographic the article bashes is pretty much supposed to be Gamasutra's target audience.

No it isn't.

Ah, that's a bit different then. I thought it was more like Kotaku. I still think they're practicing really bad PR here, but thanks for clarifying.

I think this controversy would be better with the name #NotAllGamers at this point.

A thousand times, this. It's obvious that there are people out there who are the assholes people are lumping all gamers in with. Nerd culture is no longer so vulnerable that you need to adopt a herd mentality - you don't need to defend those people in order to defend yourself. Instead of attacking the people who're hurting you because they've been made overly defensive and angry by the kinds of people who post death threats, take their side against the people who're making your community look like a bunch of entitled shitheads. Explicitly say to journalists or developers or whoever, "Hey, no, I know you're upset, and that's pretty fucking understandable, but painting the whole community with that brush is not cool. Not all of us are like that," and publicly attack the villains you insist are the minority in order to back up that point.

For as long as this is about gamers vs any outsider group, gamers are going to lose in everyone's eyes but their own. It's got nothing to do with being an oppressed subculture - it's got everything to do with the assholes you're letting speak for you.

Eh, it's not like everyone on the #GamerGate side of things are gamers. Like, back in August, Milo Yiannopoulos posted an article painting video games as rape simulators for maladjusted sociopaths. It's pretty obvious he's not a gamer, no matter how you define the word. That didn't stop him from publishing the game journalist mailing list when it was leaked to him.

He might certainly be an asshole, though.

[Neonivek]

A real article might be more helpful Soadreqm, I think we are entitled to it

[Soadreqm]

But, if you want analogies, we're at the point where you're saying a bigot who actually did get mugged by a black guy shouldn't have reported it to the police because of the damage an investigation could do to the local black community. Because they deserved to be mugged for being a bigot, apparently.

If it's supposed to be an analogy for the death threats received by Sarkeesian et. al., the mugging was actually anonymous and we're only assuming it was done by a black guy because the bigot's been making a lot of enemies among black people recently. (And because black people are muggers, obviously.) And people are not saying she shouldn't report it to the police, they're saying that she shouldn't tweet about it, and instead report it to the police.

Like, that's actually one of the accusations I've seen leveled against Sarkeesian. That she didn't report one of the threats to the police immediately when she got it.

A real article might be more helpful Soadreqm, I think we are entitled to it

Oh for fuck's sake.
The url is http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/08/14/Players-as-young-as-12-and-13-are-being-raped-by-dorky-weirdos-on-Grand-Theft-Auto and I am going to edit it back to that post now.

[Neonivek]

they're saying that she shouldn't tweet about it, and instead report it to the police

Which I would agree with.

-----
Yeah the person's lack of experience gaming sort of... shows itself.

Personally, I don't understand grown men wasting their lives playing computer games. It seems a bit sad to me. I mean, we've all been sucked in to a few rounds of Candy Crush, but if you want to shoot a gun, why not go to a rifle range? I suspect most people who play these games have never held a firearm in real life.

Because honestly I can't help but smile when I read this because it fundamentally misses the point and could be applied to movies or music.

But what is especially weird is that the creator of this doesn't really want to do anything about it.

I think I'm right to be a bit disturbed by the whole culture around games like Grand Theft Auto. Is it me, or do these weirdos need therapy and their internet connections taken away by mum?

Is that it essentially is just a finger wagging article. "Ohh those rascal Grand Theft Auto players. Modding games for their own enjoyment that 12 year olds, unsupervised by their parents, can get a hold of".

Anyhow on a more serious note... Yes you do have the right to be disturbed. No, most of these people do not need therapy.

It is one of those things that looks much more disturbing then it actually is: like grown adult female pedophilia that you got with Justin Beiber (back when he was 15) and Edward Cullen (who has the body of a 17 year old), and probably whenever the next under-age star who attracts 30+ year old women.

-Note: I skipped over the fact that the article is trying to make you think that people modified the game so they can just rape whoever was playing... or that it seemed to forget that the game is NOT FOR CHILDREN... So I am making it seem much more sane then it is.

[DJ]

I love how he acknowledges that it's the parents that let their children play age-inappropriate games, but still blames the developers. What's next, if you let your toddler drive your car and it ends up in a wreck, you should sue the car manufacturer?

[Phmcw]

This is actually eye opening. Remember the advice with the two games? He cathered to the anti gamer crowd, and now hop, 180° "Everywhere You Look, Sex Is Being Regulated and Sanitised. We Should Stop This Nannying Puritanism" he title.

Of course at the time, gamer were left wing and he is right wing.

As for the #notallgamers first I do find that indeed the #yesallmen campain is largely misguided and largely intelleectually dishonest. Like most American political initiatives, it's aiming at making anyone that oppose you look bad.

#yesallmen is dumb because that was a case of insanity like so many other, and it as blended with an ideology like so many others.  But take the case of Richard Drum, he wrote similar letter and he was left wing, socialist and pro Palestinian. He shot a town hall reunion to stop being a "looser" and "more like hitler" since he preffered being "fear and hated than pitied". He chose to do the oposite of everything he stood for to get noticed... 

So yeah, the opportunistic smear campain that pass for activism in your beautifull country tend to attract haters, and inevitably an equal and opposite smear campain.

The issue is particularly clear with guns rights. Your current laws are disasterous but what are democrat doing about it? Raising FUD about "weapons of war" and "high power rifles". No one actually look at the problem, the merits of the arguments raised by the oposition, or potential solutions. The extremes have the mics, and the masses follow.

[Neonivek]

I am thinking of a lot of characters both male and female.

I am currently wondering how many male characters could be replaced by a female one without it changing anything (sexuality not mattering)

And how female characters could be switched with a male one without it mattering.

Because after I thought REALLY hard about the story of roles in fiction... That male characters are less attached to their gender than female ones.

Kings Quest for example Rosella being a woman is actually a theme and part of her characterization... and while Alexander is atypical for a male hero he is meant to be more of a Romantic hero or a Romeo, HECK honestly he would make for a VERY Atypical female hero (A Poetry spouting romantic female heroine who is more at home in the library then out on an adventure... I DARE YOU to think of one female character like that), but I don't think he was intended to be atypical just counter to Graham (The kids are gender reversed versions of their parents, so Rosella is like Graham and Alexander is like Valanece).

MIND YOU I think my analysis is rather flawed. I am sure there are a few male characters who have themes of "maleness" in them.

Note: This excludes "Chose the main character" games... but as I said... those games almost always scantly characterize the hero.

[Phmcw]

I'd like to challenge one belief : I don't thing that for a game in a modern setting, a woman in a main character, especially when she's not sexualised in any way, is detrimental to sales. This however only hold if a) you don't force your ideology into the game because gamers tend to hate that b) The character is adequately written .

[NobodyPro]

I'd like to challenge one belief : I don't thing that for a game in a modern setting, a woman in a main character, especially when she's not sexualised in any way, is detrimental to sales. This however only hold if a) you don't force your ideology into the game because gamers tend to hate that b) The character is adequately written .

Male protagonists selling more copies isn't so much a belief as it is a trend that has been identified by people who are payed to find these trends.

There's another element to this though: as a result of this pattern games that are guaranteed to sell copies (GTA, spin-off Halo games etc.) are given very safe, trend-conforming, protagonists in an attempt to maximise profit. As more games follow the trend and sell well the trend becomes more defined and Paul Marketing continues to push developers to conform to it for maximum profit.

[Sheb]

Has there been any data on this posted on this thread though, or are we just going with the assumption that AAA devs goes with whatever bring the most cash and so that the bias toward male character must be because male character sells more?

[Phmcw]

Yeah, but that's a marketting position that only suit big studios that eye candy their games to death : make an unnecessarily consensual product packed with actions and with no clear strong points that you sell through overwhelming advertizing. If you don't have the choice of the character, he's male by default, just to be unoriginal and safe.

While that's a small subset of games they are very visible, thus may and do lead peoples to believe that it's a good and viable strategy for all markets.
It's not, and it's been proved times and times again. Mirror edge, Portals, Tomb raiders,... and that's actually a regression compeared to "classic" videogame where you often had the choice between a male and a female character, often with a slightly different characterisation.

And I believe that gta's heroes are men because no one in the industry is able to write a convincing female gangster.

Has there been any data on this posted on this thread though, or are we just going with the assumption that AAA devs goes with whatever bring the most cash and so that the bias toward male character must be because male character sells more?

I don't think we have any data on the main hero of AAA games. A guestimate would be that the majority of the time, you have the choice.

[BurnedToast]

Has there been any data on this posted on this thread though, or are we just going with the assumption that AAA devs goes with whatever bring the most cash and so that the bias toward male character must be because male character sells more?

http://www.themarysue.com/why-games-with-female-protagonists-dont-sell-and-what-it-says-about-the-industry/

Unfortunately the original article is no longer available (or I can't find it, anyway). However, per the linked article, according to geoffrey zatkin COO of EEDAR (the biggest market research firm for video games).. well, I'll just quote it

In terms of pure sales numbers, in the first three months of availability, games with only a male hero sold around 25 percent better than games with an optional female hero. Games with exclusively male heroes sold around 75 percent better than games with only female heroes.

So male only sells 75% better then female only.... and adding the choice actually makes your games sell worse!

The article goes on to mention that at least part of this is due to advertising (games with female only protagonists only had 40% of the advertising budget of male only, on average) but that's still a huge gap that advertising alone can't explain.

[Phmcw]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/103045-EEDAR-Says-the-Chicks-Are-Alright

An article on the escapist before the journalist became judge, jury and executioneers.

At the time 51% of games featured a female playable character, on consoles.

In itself it's important, gaming on console tend to be shallow and action-oriented, due to the limitations of the support.
But it's only numbers : how many of these games are failures because the woman despicted is a monodimentionnal fighter in a bikini?
How many of those games have a big enough marketting budget? An how many of the very sucessfull games are rehash of old franchises?
Beside the sample is tiny : 24 games. Blaming the numbers on "gamer" sexism is easy, but I think that simply, a big number of those games are bad, and that games like Cod and Battlefield (and the pletora of imitators) skew the numbers.

[Mattk50]

a 273 page thread about anita but nothing on gamergate? Did a thread get deleted or something?

[Lyeos]

a 273 page thread about anita but nothing on gamergate? Did a thread get deleted or something?

Several were locked, yes.
Or maybe I'm thinking of another topic? I dunno.