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[Neonivek]

As for Saints Row. You know when you play it you are supposed to enjoy the sex, violence, sexism, and racism it is presenting you with... It doesn't take refuge in its parody.

It escapes being a Parody Cake because it isn't making a commentary about what you see. It doesn't say "this is stupid" it says "this is awesome" explicitly.

Parody Cake implies a certain level of dishonesty.

GTA is not a documentary.

Games do not have to pick and chose between super realism and complete fantasy.

[penguinofhonor]

So, because sexism is an issue in both the real world and (because of that) in video games, it is something to be avoided even when portrayed as something that is bad?

I think there's a difference between portraying it as a bad thing that shouldn't happen and portraying it as a bad thing that edgy evil people do (which is what I was referring to).

I guess "bad" is really vague. Probably not a good word to use in discussions like this.

GTA is not a documentary.

Games do not have to pick and chose between super realism and complete fantasy.

They don't! I don't think they should. But it's not like GTA is at 60% realism and removing sexism would bump it down to 55% which is too low. They choose how realistic the game is and where that realism is focused, so why choose to add realism in ways that's going to alienate people?

[Rolan7]

I should state that some of those "Both genders" are not a choice so much as the game having more then one protagonist.

Even if 50% of games offer female protagonist options, that's still a 10% to 40% split between female-only and male-only games.

Sounds odd... but I do mean this sincerely... but... What is the problem?

What is the issue in having over 50% of games have a female protagonist even if she isn't necessarily the ONLY protagonist in the game.

In fact in many respects it is a nice compromise if one is to use the "market" argument.

I didn't mean to criticize bi-gender games!  While they can be prohibitively expensive depending on the type of game, I think they're generally the best.  I even like how, due to time and budget constraints, the protagonist usually ends up being treated almost the same regardless of gender.  Equality due to economy!

And even the disparity between female-only and male-only games isn't, as I see it, the main problem we face:

Not that we can fix sexism by making more games with DD half-naked bimbo heroes.  The problem isn't that games don't feature females.  It's the number of females in interactive media who are insulting caricatures, insulting both real women and the male gamers to which they're marketed.  We need more healthy female role models in gaming, and also more power fantasies for female gamers to play as.  We *also*, separately, need to avoid systematically portraying women as more helpless than men.

And GTA portrays a gritty, criminal fantasy world.  It would be weird for these murderers and drug pushers to mysteriously shun prostitution... they're *bad*.  Their immorality is obvious, and the point.  Bad things happen to these bad people, because they're bad.  GTA isn't parody cake, it's a morality play.

Now the Saints Rows series, that's parody cake.

GTA is a morality play that backpedals into claims of parody whenever anyone is offended by it, and attempts to be taken seriously otherwise. In other words, parody cake.

Saints Row doesn't bullshit around with you. It's just plain parody.

GTA catches flack for all the evil it depicts and allows players to conduct.  These activist groups frankly don't understand interactive media, so it's easier to claim parody than to explain how the characters suffer for their vices over the course of the games.

Saints Row is a box of toys where some of the toys are sexual exploitation.  Yes it's a joke, but it's glorifying some ugly things as if they weren't.

[Gatleos]

GTA catches flack for all the evil it depicts and allows players to conduct.  These activist groups frankly don't understand interactive media, so it's easier to claim parody than to explain how the characters suffer for their vices over the course of the games.

Only it's not just a claim, the content of the game is steeped in parody. Sometimes. Those times being when they don't feel like being taken seriously.

Saints Row is a box of toys where some of the toys are sexual exploitation.  Yes it's a joke, but it's glorifying some ugly things as if they weren't.

I've never played Saints Row, only heard about and watched others' playthroughs (briefly), so I can't really say and I won't try to make a further argument. Does it really present racism and sexism in a positive light?

[Neonivek]

Not that we can fix sexism by making more games with DD half-naked bimbo heroes.  The problem isn't that games don't feature females.  It's the number of females in interactive media who are insulting caricatures, insulting both real women and the male gamers to which they're marketed.  We need more healthy female role models in gaming, and also more power fantasies for female gamers to play as.  We *also*, separately, need to avoid systematically portraying women as more helpless than men.

Honestly this is one of those unwinnable situations that often pop up.

Cause as many people know Laura Croft, in spite of everything that has been said about her... before the reboot... Has been the "Power female fantasy" for quite some time... and not because "Women gamers looked past her appearance", no that was part of the formula. Though I think "Life With Darrek" has actually handled it better (Even if their Laura Croft Expy is oddly way more sexualized then the real one who only had large breast... what with her Bra Missiles) then I have in explaining it... but they basically said that they want more characters like this Laura Croft Expy, but that they should be more realistic with their design.

It is why I think "Sex and Women depiction in videogames" is a lot more complicated topic then most people give credit for. They often go to the "sex is bad" side or "Sex is bad if a man made it".

It is a balance is what I am saying.

Then again what made Laura Croft work is because most of her games don't play up her sexuality (what I call the "She's sexy get over it" effect) and show her as a competent, strong, smart, and beautiful individual and never compromise that. It wasn't anywhere near as bad as some games and her suit is relatively decent.

Then again, how many good female characters were there back then?

For example you can have a female character who has her boyfriend kidnapped... Well now she is just doing it "FOR A MAN!"... You can have her kidnapped only to escape herself... Well now you just "Disempowered her"... You can't avoid or play to clichés and expect not to have criticism for how a female character is presented. It takes real guts to even attempt a female character because these discussions will always loom over you and ultimately everything boils down to interpretation.

It is actually the ONE benefit male characters have over female characters as far as writers are concerned. No matter what they do with a male character, they are never going to be called out for it because of how they are portraying them. Except Alexander... Dang it people Alexander is a great character!

[Fniff]

I would agree with that. It's pretty hard writing female characters for a really stupid reason: there is a constant worry you're being accidentally sexist, so you keep second-guessing yourself.

[Reelya]

I even saw one feminist blog ripping shreds of Mirror's Edge for misogyny over stuff that would be plain standard character background stuff for a male character - it was misogynistic that she had traumatic memories of the death of her mother.

Personally, i think it just fleshes out the character, but to that blogger, any mere mention of something bad having happened to any female character is misogyny. Which makes it REAL hard to write for, and still have "edge".

I'm sure people here agree that "they murdered my mother" as a background is no more misogyny than "they murdered my father" is misandry, but there's always someone out there to take it the wrong way.

[Rolan7]

GTA catches flack for all the evil it depicts and allows players to conduct.  These activist groups frankly don't understand interactive media, so it's easier to claim parody than to explain how the characters suffer for their vices over the course of the games.

Only it's not just a claim, the content of the game is steeped in parody. Sometimes. Those times being when they don't feel like being taken seriously.

Saints Row is a box of toys where some of the toys are sexual exploitation.  Yes it's a joke, but it's glorifying some ugly things as if they weren't.

I've never played Saints Row, only heard about and watched others' playthroughs (briefly), so I can't really say and I won't try to make a further argument. Does it really present racism and sexism in a positive light?

I played a few hours of three.  I don't remember any racism, and... well, I didn't encounter much sexism either.  But that's just because I didn't happen across or get to the missions where you steal prostitutes as if they were commodities.

I could be wrong.  To my mind though, it just doesn't have the justification that GTA does.  Maybe it's because I mainly played San Andreas and GTA 4 (technically I played far more GTA 2, hehe) in which vices were clearly depicted as destroying people.  But it was a slow lesson, not easily explained to people who didn't play the games.  Well, there were even some cutscenes in San Andreas where it's painted in black and white: crack was destroying the main character's neighborhood, destroying lives.

And GTA 4 was just depression bonanza.  People complain about the strip clubs in GTA 4, but they miss the context:  The main character's cousin, a loveable oaf who came to America with dreams of success through hard work, is now stuck in a rut as a taxi driver.  And what is his favorite way to feel okay with this?  Strip clubs.  It's not glorified or romanticized at all, it's explicitly something the character does to pretend America isn't a massive let down.

No wonder people considered GTA 4 a lousy downer.  Saints Row is much more fun and cartoony.  It's probably mostly harmless, though.

Not that we can fix sexism by making more games with DD half-naked bimbo heroes.  The problem isn't that games don't feature females.  It's the number of females in interactive media who are insulting caricatures, insulting both real women and the male gamers to which they're marketed.  We need more healthy female role models in gaming, and also more power fantasies for female gamers to play as.  We *also*, separately, need to avoid systematically portraying women as more helpless than men.

Honestly this is one of those unwinnable situations that often pop up.

Cause as many people know Laura Croft, in spite of everything that has been said about her... before the reboot... Has been the "Power female fantasy" for quite some time... and not because "Women gamers looked past her appearance", no that was part of the formula. Though I think "Life With Darrek" has actually handled it better (Even if their Laura Croft Expy is oddly way more sexualized then the real one who only had large breast... what with her Bra Missiles) then I have in explaining it.

It is why I think "Sex and Women depiction in videogames" is a lot more complicated topic then most people give credit for. They often go to the "sex is bad" side or "Sex is bad if a man made it".

It is a balance is what I am saying.

Then again what made Laura Croft work is because most of her games don't play up her sexuality (what I call the "Her breasts are large, get over it" effect) and show her as a competent, strong, smart, and beautiful individual and never compromise that. It wasn't anywhere near as bad as some games and her suit is relatively decent.

Then again, how many good female characters were there back then?

For example you can have a female character who has her boyfriend kidnapped... Well now she is just doing it "FOR A MAN!"... You can have her kidnapped only to escape herself... Well now you just "Disempowered her"... You can't avoid or play to clichés and expect not to have criticism for how a female character is presented. It takes real guts to even attempt a female character because these discussions will always loom over you.

It is actually the ONE benefit male characters have over female characters as far as writers are concerned. No matter what they do with a male character, they are never going to be called out for it because of how they are portraying them.

It's true, it is a very complicated topic.  Lara Croft is arguably a great power fantasy for women.  Now, I think it's unfortunate that they inflated her boob size after creating her character... but other than that, she's honestly cool.  Strong, confident, with a need for adventure despite her personal fortune.  Like you say, her sexuality isn't played up.

The only Lara Croft game I finished was the most recent one, and I wasn't offended at all.  She survives a lot of really disgusting, traumatic occurrences yes.  But she doesn't passively give in to them, she overcomes them and transforms into the vengeful hero of her setting.

Aside: I don't like the word heroine, I'd rather just use "hero" for both genders.  Inaccurate I know but the meaning is clear.

And yes, I would be offended if the latest Lara Croft was a wimpy girl who needed help from strong men.  As a man, I hate that such things are created to appeal to me.  I am excessively upset about Metroid Other M.  Not to dredge up the rather off-topic argument from earlier, but this issue effects both genders and we need perspective from both sides to understand it.

Edit: Wrong first quote

[Neonivek]

I even saw one feminist blog ripping shred of Mirror's Edge for misogyny over stuff that would be plan standard character background stuff for a male character - it was misogynistic that she had traumatic memories of the death of her mother.

It is because of the belief that female characters have things "Happen to them" as opposed to others, that it is often considered sexist now to have female characters go through physical or mental trauma.

Yet, once again the unwinnable situation pops up... Since if you were to have... Their family or loved ones die as inspiration to carry them through the campaign... That is just as easy to interpret as sexist as well UNLESS they are "just a friend" and that friend better be male AND she better also already have a male love interest so people don't confuse the two.

Or I guess you can forgo making it personal for the female protagonist... That is the only way out. Having the female character just do it for pretty much only personal conviction. Which can work, but need a lot more work if you plan on making your female protagonist more then just a faceless/mute hero.

It is why you just have to be brave.

I am excessively upset about Metroid Other M

Other M is just a story on terribleness and is outright character assassination.

The only Lara Croft game I finished was the most recent one, and I wasn't offended at all.  She survives a lot of really disgusting, traumatic occurrences yes.  But she doesn't passively give in to them, she overcomes them and transforms into the vengeful hero of her setting.

What helps it is that the game doesn't parade it, it isn't reveling in Laura's ineptitude and helplessness. It not only spreads it out but most of the scenes are about her overcoming the obstacles presented. It is what the game was advertised as, but it was just trying to drum up controversy.

Or another way of putting it: The game doesn't try to disempower Laura Croft. It takes away her tools, friends, family and puts her in the wilderness to survive. It is about how she is "empowered" in spite of everything.

[penguinofhonor]

Cause as many people know Laura Croft, in spite of everything that has been said about her... before the reboot... Has been the "Power female fantasy" for quite some time... and not because "Women gamers looked past her appearance", no that was part of the formula.

I even saw one feminist blog ripping shreds of Mirror's Edge for misogyny over stuff that would be plain standard character background stuff for a male character - it was misogynistic that she had traumatic memories of the death of her mother.

Personally, i think it just fleshes out the character, but to that blogger, any mere mention of something bad having happened to any female character is misogyny. Which makes it REAL hard to write for, and still have "edge".

So write for actual women, not the academic feminist bloggers. Laura Croft kind of shows that works.

[Rolepgeek]

The only problem with Laura Croft is the breast size and appearance fetish it has. >.> Which happened because of a mistake that helped the game sell, apparently, in the first one.

[Neonivek]

Laura Croft wasn't made "for women", at least to my knowledge.

The only problem with Laura Croft is the breast size and appearance fetish it has. >.> Which happened because of a mistake that helped the game sell, apparently, in the first one.

Oddly enough Tifa is sort of in the same boat. Her breasts are very large, but it was because of an engine limitation (she could either have huge breasts or no breasts)

But MOST versions of Tifa since then, have put them at the right size.

[Rolepgeek]

Laura Croft wasn't made "for women", at least to my knowledge.

The only problem with Laura Croft is the breast size and appearance fetish it has. >.> Which happened because of a mistake that helped the game sell, apparently, in the first one.

Oddly enough Tifa is sort of in the same boat. Her breasts are very large, but it was because of an engine limitation (she could either have huge breasts or no breasts)

But MOST versions of Tifa since then, have put them at the right size.

The guy accidentally put 5. instead of .5 or whatever in the area about her breast size when writing the program that had her model. She was originally planned to have a much more reasonable breast size, but when it started selling so well...

[Gatleos]

I am excessively upset about Metroid Other M

Other M is just a story on terribleness and is outright character assassination.

The scary thing about Other M is that it was entirely unintentional. The dysfunctional, abusive relationship between Samus and Adam was just seen as entirely normal by Yoshio Sakamoto when he wrote it.

[Neonivek]

I am excessively upset about Metroid Other M

Other M is just a story on terribleness and is outright character assassination.

The scary thing about Other M is that it was entirely unintentional. The dysfunctional, abusive relationship between Samus and Adam was just seen as entirely normal by Yoshio Sakamoto when he wrote it.

At Face value very little with what Other M does is "bad". (There are genuinely bad ideas at face value don't get me wrong)

Samus working under a cold calculating person who seems to know what he is letting on? Good idea... Samus being unable to use her full arsenal because it might kill someone or destroy the ship? Good idea. Samus being distraught over the death of the baby Metroid that gave its life to save her? Good idea. Samus finally starting to crack under pressure and hasn't yet recovered? Sure!

I could go on but what I am saying is that at face value, it isn't bad for the most part.

The problem is that the game doesn't justify or show you any of this. Instead just forcing Samus into these situations in spite of all logic. The execution of these ideas is so disastrously bad that it just ruins the character. I could go at length about how this game could have executed any one of its ideas well.

The actual sexist part In my opinion isn't the whole Adam thing (I consider that just SUPER POOR execution and ignoring previously established plot) except maybe that one scene that I won't spoil... But rather how the game interprets a "woman should go through PTSD", so Samus responds to stress by "becoming weak and defenseless".
-Well that and the whole constant dripping of sexism the interactions give off. Samus being the "Woman who needs to prove herself to the other men" stupidity with people constantly calling her a "lady" and stuff and Samus feeling she is "giving up her femininity" crud. I am not sure if even this could have been executed well.

Some stuff also could have been saved IF THE GAME HAD ANY AMOUNT OF SUBTLY. BABY, BABY'S CRY, BOTTLESHIP! Dear goodness I wanted to kill the baby Metroid halfway through the game, and it was already dead.

And yet even if the game was about some person named Shamus it is still a terrible game because the game isn't even ABOUT Samus. Samus isn't an instrument in the plot she is just an onlooker. What a terrible way to make a game... I've seen games where you are mostly an observer, but you are still pivotal to the resolution of the plot.