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[Max White]

Why do I click your spoilers, Soli?
That third image almost made me throw up before I realized I was looking at shell clothing rather than some horrific mutant. Give a guy a chance, like I don't know, spoiler tags!

[Solifuge]

Don't shoot the messenger... and welcome to the wonderful world of Bioware, I suppose. (Shellfish Elf is exceedingly ridiculous, and I cannot imagine that being pleasant attire at all down there. Blegh...)

Anyway, I liked this as an example, and think we could structure some of this discussion around it to help us distance ourselves from our preconceptions:


Assuming that this square represents the Video Game Industry, and the Green in the corner represents the number of games with Non-Objectified Female Characters, what do Red and Yellow represent? And why is it a bad thing for there to be more Green, when there is a clear and present demand for it?

[Vector]

@DJ

Let's see, of the fictional media there we have...

NCIS, The Big Bang Theory, Castle, and Criminal Minds.  Yup.  Those are all dude-oriented.  I've only seen half of them, but I can tell you that BBT and Castle are definitely marketed towards men.  The former specifically trades on making misogynistic and racist "jokes."

[Rolan7]

Largely because I see this:



And I say: "That square is mostly red and yellow."

And people respond with:

1) "No, there is red."
2) "No, there is yellow."
3) "No, you're totally wrong. There's green in the lower right."

Yes, there is red. Yes, there is yellow. Yes, there is some green in the lower right. But I don't understand why you people disagree with the statement that it's mostly red and yellow.

We're saying there's a shortage of yellow.  You're saying that there is some yellow.  We're insisting that there is a SHORTAGE of yellow.  You blame us for making do with red

Edit: Actually that's not right, you keep saying that there's plenty of yellow.  There really isn't.  We CERTAINLY aren't disagreeing that most things are sexist or not sexist.

[DJ]

What exactly would be a woman-focused or a gender neutral show? Bonus points if you describe it without using any of the women stereotypes you hate so much.

[Max White]

Well lets say Red is games oriented towards males. There is nothing wrong with these games. Yellow is games that are non-gender specific, such as optional gender games or games that do not include gender. Still nothing wrong. Green is games oriented towards women. Nothing wrong with these sorts of games either!

So what is the problem? Well the problem isn't the existence of any of these three colors, it is the distribution. We could certainly wind back on red a little, and perhaps we would have less generic FPS cover based shooters that look like brown. At the same time, some more green would be great!
We can pretty safely say there is a market for green, on the basis that women are people, and people fucking love their media. We have books, tv shows and movies directed at women, and some of them are even good! Ok so some of them are Twilight, that is ok, some male oriented stuff is pure shit too! Point is, games are really engaging things because they are interactive, they plug into the reward center of our brain and feel good. Women are sure to like games if they are well make and marketed.

What exactly would be a woman-focused or a gender neutral show? Bonus points if you describe it without using any of the women stereotypes you hate so much.

Crap, I wish I watched more tv for women...
I know Charmed was really popular. I have vaguely heard about it, and it sounded kind of crappy. Still, anybody with first hand knowledge know if it is actually good?

[Rolan7]

What exactly would be a woman-focused or a gender neutral show? Bonus points if you describe it without using any of the women stereotypes you hate so much.

For the crime shows, how about if the teams had 1-2 token males instead of females?  Doesn't count if they dress in leather and work for the token male.
Are there even any crime shows starring a woman detective?  If there are, and they're unpopular, isn't that an indication that the general public is prejudiced against smart women leads?

[Max White]

Bones starred a woman detective and was popular. Actually it was pretty good.

[Solifuge]

What exactly would be a woman-focused or a gender neutral show? Bonus points if you describe it without using any of the women stereotypes you hate so much.

As an aside, am I the only one who finds this language charged with subtle scorn?

[DJ]

I haven't seen Bones in quite a while, but wasn't the guy there basically a sidekick to the girl and a comic relief character?

And Solifuge, you might be seeing it because it's there.

[Max White]

Yea, so?
I don't have a problem with that. He was a cool guy.

[DJ]

So, he supposedly doesn't exist.

[Max White]

...
I don't follow you. Could you expand on your point?

[DJ]

Rolan was just saying how there's no female leads in crime shows, they're always relegated to sidekicks for the male leads.

[Max White]

Ooh.
No that is wrong. Actually Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries was also a kick ass series!