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[Solifuge]

So Morrowind is a fantastic game that treats females and males as (gasp) equal. Why exactly are you arguing against the push for more games like this?

Why did you interpret me as opposing LordBucket's viewpoint there? Take off them blinders, if you would. I agree, Morrowind is a rare example of good storytelling without substantial gender bias. However, if you both would stop singling out that one example where I agreed, and deigned to acknowledged that every other example was pretty terrible, and full of egregious sexualization, flimsy and emotionally fickle female characters, and so on, that'd be cool. Because most games are not like Morrowind.

EDIT: Unless, of course, you were addressing LordBucket there, whom I don't believe was opposing more games like Morrowind either. So if that's the case, color me confused.

Hey, those flimsy dresses are very practical! They come with a great mana boost! Also they have this cool trick of turning into full robes when worn on a male, how cool is that!

Tangentially Relevant Pt.1: Marvel Superheroines redesigned with costumes that don't look painted on. Behold, as they actually look capable of fighting and/or heroics!

Spoiler: Tangentially Relevant Pt. 2: (click to show/hide)

So there’s a blog called The Hawkeye Initiative where people highlight ridiculously-proportioned women in comics by drawing Hawkeye in the same pose. This isn’t exactly a submission, but it was kinda nice to draw a character with no regard for things like spines or internal organs.

[Cheeetar]

So Morrowind is a fantastic game that treats females and males as (gasp) equal. Why exactly are you arguing against the push for more games like this?

Why did you interpret me as opposing LordBucket's viewpoint there? Take off them blinders, if you would. I agree, Morrowind is a rare example of good storytelling without substantial gender bias. However, if you both would stop singling out that one example where I agreed, and deigned to acknowledged that every other example was pretty terrible, and full of egregious sexualization, flimsy and emotionally fickle female characters, and so on, that'd be cool. Because most games are not like Morrowind.

I wasn't actually aiming that at you, Solifuge. I was quoting LordBucket, and directing my comment at him.

[Solifuge]

I can't speak for him, but I don't think he was against more games like Morrowind either.

[LordBucket]

Not to gang up on you

Unfortunately it seems to be a recurring theme among bay12 threads that I end up with half a dozen posters all disagreeing with me, me trying to respond to everyone, then it degenerates into people nitpicking over tiny little things and totally missing the overall picture. Eventually I give up trying to respond to 3-5 posts for every one of mine, and you all get to feel good about yourselves for having "won" and I wonder why I waste my time.

Standard bay12 discussion thread.

most of the examples that you cited, and which I was familiar with, were pretty bogus and terrible examples of relevant female characters with actual strength

1) I disagree with your characterization

2) You came to that conclusion by ignoring half my examples

3) I was giving an honest and complete list, not an incomplete and biased one. If I give the following list: "1,1,1,1,2,2,6,10" and say "most of those numbers are less than 5" it's not reasonable for you to point out 10 and claim that my examples don't support my conclusion.

4) It's not reasonable to dismiss two of my examples just because they happen to be in a genre that doesn't easily lend itself to supporting your position.

If you're pretending that women aren't marketed beautiful, flimsy, and impractical things almost exclusively, while men are marketed plain, sturdy, and functional things, you're the one with the tinted lenses good sir.

...what?

This is what I said:
"If a man holds open a door for a women, did he intend:

a) You are a woman. I like women. I choose to be courteous to you.
b) You are helpless and weak and I'll hold this door open for you because you're too pathetic to do it on your own.

If he intends a, and you get angry because you feel b, is that really his fault?"

This is how you interprted it:
"you're pretending that women aren't marketed beautiful, flimsy, and impractical things almost exclusively, while men are marketed plain, sturdy, and functional things"

How did you get from A to B?


The point of my comment to Vector was that people are trying to give her something they think she'll like. If they're wrong and she doesn't like it...ok, maybe they're wrong, and that's unfortunate. But to misinterpret that intent and get angry that they're trying to sell her things that aren't particularly functional is to view the situation through heavily distorted lenses.

"I be nice to you by opening a door --interpreted as->"you think I'm helpless."
"I give you something beautiful" --interpreted as-> "oh, you only give women lousy, impractical things."

Do you understand the analogy now? Nobody's "pretending" that women aren't marketed things with more emphasis on pretty than functionality. Yes, I totally acknowledge that, and I don't know why you thought otherwise.

[Cheeetar]

I can't speak for him, but I don't think he was against more games like Morrowind either.

I think (and I may be misinterpreting his viewpoint, and he's free to correct me here if I'm wrong) that LordBucket thinks that sexism is not a problem in games. Therefore, this push for more gender equality in games is invalid. He may not dislike games like Morrowind, but he's certainly opposing support for more games like it.

Unfortunately it seems to be a recurring theme among bay12 threads that I end up with half a dozen posters all disagreeing with me

I wonder why.

[Max White]

Be strong! Always remember that just because the majority is against you doesn't make you wrong!
Not when there are so many more interesting ways to be wrong... Being correct via being he majority is boring.

[LordBucket]

LordBucket thinks that sexism is not a problem in games.

This statement is too vague for me to say whether I agree or disagree with it.

He may not dislike games like Morrowind, but he's certainly opposing support for more games like it.

This statement is incorrect.

Unfortunately it seems to be a recurring theme among bay12 threads that I end up with half a dozen posters all disagreeing with me

I wonder why.

Largely because I see this:



And I say: "That square is mostly red and yellow."

And people respond with:

1) "No, there is red."
2) "No, there is yellow."
3) "No, you're totally wrong. There's green in the lower right."

Yes, there is red. Yes, there is yellow. Yes, there is some green in the lower right. But I don't understand why you people disagree with the statement that it's mostly red and yellow.

[Vector]

All right, I'd like to hear your thesis statement, then, because perhaps I'm arguing against an opinion you don't have.

[Max White]

You seem to misunderstand, LordBucket.
You see some people really fucking like green. I mean I'm a yellow fan but I understand these peoples wishes and heck, I might enjoy some more green too if it was there! So we want more green!

Your reply seems to be "Well there is mostly yellow and red, so clearly there is little demand for green! We don't need more green, look at all the green that is there! Why do you hate red!"
Why not give green a chance?

[LordBucket]

All right, I'd like to hear your thesis statement, then, because perhaps I'm arguing against an opinion you don't have.

From my point of view, this thread is discussing several different topics that are only barely related to each other. It would be easier for me to answer a question than to attempt to summarize my views on all of those topics all at once. Can we try it that way first? Ask a specific question and I'll answer?

[Vector]

No, because I have no idea what you think you've been talking about.

Okay, what do you think of the fact that most media are aimed at men?

[DJ]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on a second there. Most media in general. I though it's just games. Newspapers certainly aren't mostly aimed at men, just go take a look at any news stand.

[Vector]

Definitely games, books, TV shows, and movies.

You're right, I'm not going to argue on newspapers, magazines, and music.  Thanks for the reminder--fiction-based entertainment was what I meant.

[DJ]

I don't really see it in TV shows either. Tope ten shows last week

[Solifuge]

Not to gang up on you

Unfortunately it seems to be a recurring theme among bay12 threads that I end up with half a dozen posters all disagreeing with me, me trying to respond to everyone, then it degenerates into people nitpicking over tiny little things and totally missing the overall picture. Eventually I give up trying to respond to 3-5 posts for every one of mine, and you all get to feel good about yourselves for having "won" and I wonder why I waste my time.

Standard bay12 discussion thread.

People disagree, and that's cool. By discussing our disagreements, we can hopefully come to a better approximation of The Truth. Sorry if you sometimes find yourself representing the only voice on your side. Maybe, once in a while, that could give you cause to step back and give some fair reconsideration to your stance, as compared to the stance others are presenting? Majority opposition does not make something innately wrong, but it could be a sign to consider what you're arguing against, in light of new information.

most of the examples that you cited, and which I was familiar with, were pretty bogus and terrible examples of relevant female characters with actual strength

1) I disagree with your characterization

2) You came to that conclusion by ignoring half my examples

3) I was giving an honest and complete list, not an incomplete and biased one. If I give the following list: "1,1,1,1,2,2,6,10" and say "most of those numbers are less than 5" it's not reasonable for you to point out 10 and claim that my examples don't support my conclusion.

4) It's not reasonable to dismiss two of my examples just because they happen to be in a genre that doesn't easily lend itself to supporting your position.

1) I'd like to know how you disagree with my characterization. Do you feel that Aribeth wasn't a female character who lacked force of will, and that she didn't abandon her entire personality and character, and make some stupid emotional decisions based on her male love interest, and a handful of male gods and authority figures? Do you contest that the female character art from Neverwinter Nights isn't mostly Cheesecake? Or that Blizzard's characters aren't all oriented toward a male audience (Sexy Women, and Powerful Men)? Details on what is it that you disagree with would be helpful.

Spoiler: NWN Pictures Again, for reference (click to show/hide)

2-3) I did not ignore half your examples. As I said in that post, I don't know many of your examples, and I don't make a habit of talking about things I don't know as though I did. That would be asinine, and intellectually dishonest. That said, judging by how I disagree with your view on the examples I am familiar with, I believe you may have a different idea of Female Empowerment than I do, or may be viewing things through selective memory.

4) It's not that Dwarf Fortress and EVE Online "don't support my stance," it's that they aren't even relevant to the matter at hand. It's like arguing that sexism is dead in literature because gender bias doesn't exist in How-To Manuals and World Atlases. If the author writes no characters or stories, how can they be responsible for introducing bias? EVE is a player-driven economy simulator... the only Female or Male characters are played by Actual Human Players. Surely you wouldn't say some GM's D&D Campaign Setting was sexist, if one of the Players was playing a terrible sexy damsel/bimbo? As for Dwarf Fortress, the random number generator is to blame for what female characters achieve in the story, what happens to them, what they look like, and so on. Toady is not directly involved in the portrayal of any female character in the game.

TL;DR - You can't apply gender tropes against authors, where direct authorial intent doesn't exist.

If you're pretending that women aren't marketed beautiful, flimsy, and impractical things almost exclusively, while men are marketed plain, sturdy, and functional things, you're the one with the tinted lenses good sir.

...what?

-snip-

How did you get from A to B?

Spoiler: This is the thread of conversation, without being taken out of context. Hopefully it explains how I got "from A to B". (click to show/hide)

This is not unique to games. For example: if you want to buy clothing that is a shirt, there are plenty of places where you can buy clothing that is shirts. If you want to buy clothing with pockets, there are plenty of places where you can buy clothing with pockets. But if you want to buy clothing that is a shirt and also has a pocket...you're going to have a tough time finding that in a women's clothing store, and when you do find it, it's going to be listed using a men's size chart, because it's made for men.

thank you, I'm very familiar with the idea that men get useful things and women
get flimsy things, because one is for men and one is for women.  Of course.

I advise you to remove your emerald glasses.

If a man holds open a door for a women, did he intend:

a) You are a woman. I like women. I choose to be courteous to you.
b) You are helpless and weak and I'll hold this door open for you because you're too pathetic to do it on your own.

If he intends a, and you get angry because you feel b, is that really his fault?

If you're pretending that women aren't marketed beautiful, flimsy, and impractical things almost exclusively, while men are marketed plain, sturdy, and functional things, you're the one with the tinted lenses good sir.

I misunderstood the door example (I don't see how it was relevant to what Vector said), but I at least understand what you weren't saying now.