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[DeKaFu]

...ok. So then I guess my question is...why do you have a preference for games with those trends if they bother you?

There's no shortage of games with gender equality and strong women. It's seems silly to me for you to demonstrate a preference for games with gender inequalities and then complain that the industry is being unfair.

You made those choices. If you're not happy with the choice, why don't you just play different games?

...I've just been sitting here staring at this because I'm actually having trouble coming to terms with how deeply offensive this is to me.

You're...actually saying that it's okay that entire genres are offensive to women because they have other genres that aren't? So, like, if you liked RTS games or FPSes but had to choose between playing ones that were personally demeaning or not playing any at all, that's a problem with you and not with the industry? You're supposed to go "well I'd really like to be playing a shooter right now but I guess I'll have to play a JRPG instead because otherwise I'll have to slog through offensive crap"?*

And yes, it's offensive to play games with stereotypically sexy women if you're a woman. In terms of player characters, people have different images they like to put themselves into in games. Some people like to play dangerous-looking criminals, righteous heavily armored warriors, practical scientists, whatever. When you're repeatedly dumped into the same role, even if that role is "someone who's apparently too thick to dress themselves appropriately for their job", you get really damn sick of it, because it's flying in the face of the experience you're trying to craft for yourself and makes it impossible to relate to the character. It then begins to grate on you every time you see a touch of it creeping in to a game you're otherwise enjoying.

*Genres chosen pretty much at random here because they don't actually matter.

[Ogdibus]

.

[LordBucket]

So... you're trying to explain that because I don't like romance novels and "chick flick" movies about women
trying to land a man, I don't get to watch movies or read books with female main characters?  Okay then.

If you want something and you're not getting it, I'm far more sympathetic to that than, for example, this women in the video this thread is supposed to be about. So far as I can tell, she's not complaining that she's "not getting what she wants." She appears to be complaining that other people are getting something she doesn't want. She's complaining about the existence of tropes that annoy her.

Personally I think the damsel in distress trope is way overdone. But if I don't like it, there's plenty of material I can go to that doesn't use it.

As you for you personally...I'm not trying to make a value judgement here, but if you want something that not a lot of people want and therefore there isn't a lot of, well...yeah you might have a difficult time finding material that appeals to you.

This is not unique to games. For example: if you want to buy clothing that is a shirt, there are plenty of places where you can buy clothing that is shirts. If you want to buy clothing with pockets, there are plenty of places where you can buy clothing with pockets. But if you want to buy clothing that is a shirt and also has a pocket...you're going to have a tough time finding that in a women's clothing store, and when you do find it, it's going to be listed using a men's size chart, because it's made for men.

[Vector]

And where you're wrong is the notion that there aren't lots, and lots, and lots of people who want it.


Yes, thank you, I'm very familiar with the idea that men get useful things and women get flimsy things, because one is for men and one is for women.  Of course.

[LordBucket]

LordBucket, are you trying to say that first person RPGs and RPG-RTSes are innately male-dominated games?

I'm sorry. I don't understand the question. Would you rephrase it? Also, the text that you quoted when you asked this question was a post from Vector, not from me. Was I the intended recipient of this question, or was it a misquote?

That women have no right to complain about them because OF COURSE they're sexist?

See my previous post. It might clarify. If not, rephrase the question without the word "sexist." It is loaded, and subject to a great deal of interpretation.

[Max White]

Actually I call bullshit.
Both of my sisters own shirts with womans sizes and pockets. They aren't even really special shirts. Well ok the bike riding shirt with pockets on the back is, but there are also normal womans shirts with pockets.
The fact that the majority of womans shirts don't come with pockets is irrelevant. They exist.

[LordBucket]

thank you, I'm very familiar with the idea that men get useful things and women
get flimsy things, because one is for men and one is for women.  Of course.

I advise you to remove your emerald glasses.

If a man holds open a door for a women, did he intend:

a) You are a woman. I like women. I choose to be courteous to you.
b) You are helpless and weak and I'll hold this door open for you because you're too pathetic to do it on your own.

If he intends a, and you get angry because you feel b, is that really his fault?

[LordBucket]

The fact that the majority of womans shirts don't come with pockets is irrelevant. They exist.

Funny. Isn't that exactly what I was saying a few posts ago about games with women being portrayed as strong and capable?

[Max White]

Well all I was doing was showing that this statement

If you want to buy clothing with pockets, there are plenty of places where you can buy clothing with pockets. But if you want to buy clothing that is a shirt and also has a pocket...you're going to have a tough time finding that in a women's clothing store, and when you do find it, it's going to be listed using a men's size chart, because it's made for men.

is factually incorrect.

[Vector]

If a man holds the door for me, I assume he intends

c. I'm polite, not a dipshit.


Similarly, if the vast majority of media is targeted towards men, I'm going to go with "oy vey, I'm glad the internet was invented so that people can go on tumblr and see all us women excited about things that are supposed to be 'for dudes.'  And maybe they'll give us more stuff."

[Solifuge]

The fact that the majority of womans shirts don't come with pockets is irrelevant. They exist.

Funny. Isn't that exactly what I was saying a few posts ago about games with women being portrayed as strong and capable?

Not to gang up on you, but most of the examples that you cited, and which I was familiar with, were pretty bogus and terrible examples of relevant female characters with actual strength, or real agency: Linko in case you missed that post.

thank you, I'm very familiar with the idea that men get useful things and women
get flimsy things, because one is for men and one is for women.  Of course.

I advise you to remove your emerald glasses.

If you're pretending that women aren't marketed beautiful, flimsy, and impractical things almost exclusively, while men are marketed plain, sturdy, and functional things, you're the one with the tinted lenses good sir.

[Max White]

Hey, those flimsy dresses are very practical! They come with a great mana boost! Also they have this cool trick of turning into full robes when worn on a male, how cool is that!

[Vector]

You know, for all of the rage against Sarkeesian, I think there's something in particular we're missing: her videos are not trying to say "hey, this is what I want," but rather she's trying to deconstruct the ways in which these games which are supposed to have "mass appeal" declare themselves as "no girls allowed, not for you."  It's a medium.  Why is it gendered.

People keep on saying that there's all this gender balance in games.  There isn't.  Not really.  She's just helping demonstrate that, and not speaking for what Woman At Large might happen to desire.

(by the way, here's a hint.  There is a very high female demand for games in the genres I happen to like.  We're still not getting our games.  I wonder why that is.  Oh, right, because the industry mistakenly thinks that women are just fine playing stuff that marginalizes us, and men won't play games where they're not the leads.  Right.)

What Sarkeesian is trying to say is: "No, this isn't fine with us.  We're upset about it."

[LordBucket]

This is inaccurate; your selection of gender alters your physical and mental stats.

Hmm. Ok. I'll redact that particular sentence.  The game does have sexual dimorphism in the sense that stats are different by gender, even though the total stats are the same. The rest remains true. As you phrase it, it is:

"a story-heavy game that does a great job of representing male and female characters as socially equal, and equally plot-important. And though there are physically powerful female characters too, more importantly there are female characters who are important, who possess agency, make decisions, and affect events by their own volition, etc."

Even though some of the most relevant examples are actually genderless extradimensional entities that only appear as ladies for convenience sake.

Azura is the only one I'm aware of who meets that description. Almalexia was originally a mortal, just like Vivec.

[Cheeetar]

Hmm. Ok. I'll redact that particular sentence.  The game does have sexual dimorphism in the sense that stats are different by gender, even though the total stats are the same. The rest remains true. As you phrase it, it is:

"a story-heavy game that does a great job of representing male and female characters as socially equal, and equally plot-important. And though there are physically powerful female characters too, more importantly there are female characters who are important, who possess agency, make decisions, and affect events by their own volition, etc."

Even though some of the most relevant examples are actually genderless extradimensional entities that only appear as ladies for convenience sake.

Azura is the only one I'm aware of who meets that description. Almalexia was originally a mortal, just like Vivec.

So Morrowind is a fantastic game that treats females and males as (gasp) equal. Why exactly are you arguing against the push for more games like this?