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[Rolan7]

It's the same issue we had before.
Everyone seems to agree that women are portrayed as weak, passive trophies in *some* games.

A lot of us think that it's most games that are sexist.  Some people think it's only a few games.

It's really hard to argue such vague quantities when we aren't even sure what types of games count OR what counts as sexism.  I have my opinion of sexism in the games industry, but it's more productive to argue about what's actually in the videos.

Which means I should probably watch the latest video... sorry.

Anyway, near the end I thought she basically said "While individually each event in each game might make sense, the games are not in a vacuum, and the prevalence of the trope is the problem".

I agree with this, though.  Not every game needs to teach gender equality, or be empowering to females.  But is our entertainment culture allowing such games to succeed beyond a few remarkable examples?  Are we selecting heavily for male empowerment fantasies, and is that a problem?  I think those are the questions she's trying to start discussion on.

And I don't care that she didn't opt for a comment section on her video.  It's not a productive forum.  It's really crap, technically speaking.  For a while now it takes me like 20 seconds to even load a comment that isn't on the front page... the threading is simply awful.  Better that people take the discussions to better forums.

[Max White]

In #2, I think she dropped the ball with the Fable II example. Early in the game you meet a strong female character who then seeks revenge for a murdered male character. This isn't some background character, she's the Hero of Strength.

No but you see they made her the physical embodiment of strength! That is reducing women to a concept! OBJECTIFICATION!

But seriously, I always laugh when ever she uses Duke Nukem as an example. You have to remember, this is the game series where men are literally turned into pigs. The entire point of the game is to look at sexism in the industry and ramp it up to eleven in a blatant display of parody.
I never enjoyed the games that much, but accusing Duke Nukem of being sexist is like accusing Starship Troopers of being pro war. You missed the point.

[penguinofhonor]

But seriously, I always laugh when ever she uses Duke Nukem as an example. You have to remember, this is the game series where men are literally turned into pigs. The entire point of the game is to look at sexism in the industry and ramp it up to eleven in a blatant display of parody.
I never enjoyed the games that much, but accusing Duke Nukem of being sexist is like accusing Starship Troopers of being pro war. You missed the point.

Neonivek, you're needed over here.

[Vector]

Max White, I'm really uncomfortable with how much you seem to enjoy setting up Straw Feminists and lambasting them in these threads.

But seriously, I always laugh when ever she uses Duke Nukem as an example. You have to remember, this is the game series where men are literally turned into pigs. The entire point of the game is to look at sexism in the industry and ramp it up to eleven in a blatant display of parody.
I never enjoyed the games that much, but accusing Duke Nukem of being sexist is like accusing Starship Troopers of being pro war. You missed the point.

Neonivek, you're needed over here.

*holds up sign that says "Parody Cake"*

[Neonivek]

I never enjoyed the games that much, but accusing Duke Nukem of being sexist is like accusing Starship Troopers of being pro war.

There are a few... where that joke is... tested.

To the point where while yes Duke Nukem is a parody of the overly macho B-movies of the past with gratuitous sex and violence... By being an unapologetic B-movie-esk gore fest with tons of gratuitous sexiness.

In other words: Parody Cake

Everyone seems to agree that women are portrayed as weak, passive trophies in *some* games

Honestly this is where I actually have a lot of contention...

You win a trophy but you don't win a hostage. It is honestly where I feel the examples are the weakest.

In a metaplot sense yes Princess Peach is simply "The ball" who is passed between Bowser and Mario. In the plot though she is never treated that way and no one thinks of her in that sense either.

Mario never saves her because he wants to win her but rather because... he would save anyone.

It never makes me feel like peach is objectified just because the goal of the game is to save her. I wished Anita found a game where the Damsel was called something like "My Girlfriend" (and I KNOW there much be a game like that somewhere... Heck there is a game where a character is named "Protagonist's Mom")

[Descan]

LET THEM EAT PARODY

[Max White]

Max White, I'm really uncomfortable with how much you seem to enjoy setting up Straw Feminists and lambasting them in these threads.

See nobody ever says a thing when I do pretty much the exact same thing for the "Other side" so to speak and rest assured, I do make fun of people who assume there is no problem with sexism today.
Do you think feminism is beyond critic?

There are a few... where that joke is... tested.

To the point where while yes Duke Nukem is a parody of the overly macho B-movies of the past with gratuitous sex and violence... By being an unapologetic B-movie-esk gore fest with tons of gratuitous sexiness.

In other words: Parody Cake

So what makes one parody "unapologetic" and another ok?
What would you have to change in Duke Nukem t change it from sexist filth to proper parody?

[Neonivek]

Some Duke Nukems are genuine Parodies in my book... Others not so much.

Mind you Duke Nukem isn't so bad to me... in that "Sexy women are sexy". A strip bar where there are strippers? Fine. If only women who are supposed to look and act sexy looked and acted sexy, videogames would be a better place. It is the compromise I made with videogames.

A Planet full of incredibly top heavy women in leather? Uhhhhhh...... Why is Duke Nukem in a game that seems to take place in a porno setting?

[Max White]

So... When I say Duke Nukem is a poor example of sexism, I am wrong because it is unapologetic and therefor "Parody cake" or something of that nature.
Then when I ask how can you tell with these thing,  Duke Nukem isn't so bad.

I clearly don't understand feminism.

Why is Duke Nukem in a game that seems to take place in a porno setting?

Why does Starship Troopers take place in a war setting?
Duke Nuken is made to look like a porno because it is trying to say "Hey guys, you know that shit about chainmail bikinis and so on? It is pretty much just porn, the difference is that we are being a little more honest about it!"

[Neonivek]

I am not feminist.

Unapologetic isn't really what makes it a parody cake. A Parody cake is a parody that uses what it is parodying for its intended purpose.

So a parody of commercialism would have a real commercial that they get paid for.

Some Duke Nukems are fine and do seem to be genuine Parodies, though I am sure others will disagree with me and that is fine. I am not the final arbiter on what is a Parody cake and what isn't (after all my definition isn't meant to be a moving goal post)

Other Duke Nukems seem to hide under the parody banner, but in truth it just seems like they wanted to make a Macho Sexy Gorefest because they wanted to make a Macho Sexy Gorefest. (to the point where I don't think they were even a parody)

[Max White]

See if that were true, why do they have men turning into pigs?
That is kind of a pretty obvious message, isn't it?

[Neonivek]

See if that were true, why do they have men turning into pigs?
That is kind of a pretty obvious message, isn't it?

Because a Parody Cake still has parody.

It figuratively is having your Parody and eating it too.

If it was a Parody that wasn't a parody... it isn't a Parody cake.

[Max White]

Except isn't that just Poes law from the other side?
You can't really blame a game when people actually enjoy it for what it is making fun of.

[Neonivek]

The Duke Nukems I am referencing are the ones... Nobody likes.

[LordBucket]

It's the same issue we had before.
Everyone seems to agree that women are portrayed as weak, passive trophies in *some* games.

A lot of us think that it's most games that are sexist.  Some people think it's only a few games.

It's really hard to argue such vague quantities

The way I see it...if you want to play a game where women are weak passive trophies, you can. If you want to play a game where women are strong and capable, you can.

So, either way...you can have what you want. What's the problem? If she was complaining that she can't have something she wants, that would appear reasonable to me. But complaining that other people are getting things that she doesn't want...that's a tough sell.