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[DJ]

Romantic comedy would be one where the romance itself is source of humour, rather than toilet humour, visual gags and other things that are incidental rather than integral to the romance itself.

As for men like this, men don't like that, it's obvious from the context I'm referring to general trends, of course you're going to find minorities that deviate from the average. But they're too small to be viable markets, so for the sake of this debate they may as well not exist.

Anyway, I like how y'all are focusing on the superficial and ignoring the core of the argument: stereotyping men as stupid is at least as offensive as stereotyping women as sexy. But is either of these things a serious problem that needs to be addressed? I don't think so. PC-zealotry is a scourge upon mankind, and I can't imagine a worse dystopia than one where everyone refrains from saying or doing anything that might offend anyone.

[palsch]

Romantic comedy would be one where the romance itself is source of humour, rather than toilet humour, visual gags and other things that are incidental rather than integral to the romance itself.

So not counting Bridesmaids, Bridget Jone's Diary, Love Actually, Four Weddings and a Funeral, or pretty much any major romcom ever made?

I'm not sure if this is a lack of familiarity with the films or just a contorted attempt to defend an incredibly weak point.

As for men like this, men don't like that, it's obvious from the context I'm referring to general trends, of course you're going to find minorities that deviate from the average. But they're too small to be viable markets, so for the sake of this debate they may as well not exist.

Except that you are just repeating a flat assertion. Maybe some evidence? Some logic? Some reason to believe you rather than my personal experience of guys (myself included) who enjoy a good romance?

Anyway, I like how y'all are focusing on the superficial and ignoring the core of the argument: stereotyping men as stupid is at least as offensive as stereotyping women as sexy. But is either of these things a serious problem that needs to be addressed? I don't think so. PC-zealotry is a scourge upon mankind, and I can't imagine a worse dystopia than one where everyone refrains from saying or doing anything that might offend anyone.

Except that the stereotype is hardly the dominant one even within the narrow bounds of a single genre, and rarely has measurable effects on wider culture. Within video games, a whole medium, measurably harmful tropes and sexualisation are dominant for female characters. That's the problem. And yes it needs fucking addressing because it's harming the industry and players both.

[Neonivek]

So not counting Bridesmaids, Bridget Jone's Diary, Love Actually, Four Weddings and a Funeral, or pretty much any major romcom ever made?

I wasn't actually aware Bridget Jone's Diary was a romance >_<

[DJ]

Well, I'm not exactly well versed in romcom, but it is entirely possible to have humour that stems from character relations.

As for men and sappy parts, myself, almost all the men I know, and the men-oriented media are pretty good indication.

And really, men are stupid isn't a common trope? I can't think of any major sitcoms that feature a married couple where the man isn't the immature and irresponsible one, and the woman the wise one.

[Dutchling]

The man is also always the fun one and woman usually is not. Still a net win for the man.

[Neonivek]

DJ expand that a little and think of something more insulting

Think of Sitcoms and think of the number of times the woman makes a mistake and needs to appologise.

There are a few Sitcoms I've seen where the female characters are COMPLETELY immune to concequences and entirely control their relationships... while the male boyfriends need to appologise.

[palsch]

And really, men are stupid isn't a common trope?

Dominant. Dominant stereotype.

You can't really speak of dominant stereotypes in a genre (sitcoms) that has such diversity of shows. Looking through this list of the top 50 British sitcoms (most of which I've seen at some point) you roughly the same range of characters you would expect to find in all media. Hell, I'd say there is stronger class stereotyping than gender in that selection, and even then it's pretty weak.

The problem, yet again, is that videogames predominantly feature women in sexualised or sexist ways. While you can find major sitcoms (and yes, major romcoms) that have both strong male and female characters it's harder to find that in games.

[Neonivek]

What are you talking about? There are a LOT of "Strong male and female characters" as well as a lot of non-sexualised and unsexist uses of women in videogames as well.

The issue is that we arn't at the levels we would like... The same with Sitcoms.

[DJ]

Hasn't there been a lengthy list of games that don't feature oversexualized women? The only subset of games it can truly apply to is action games on consoles.

[palsch]

What are you talking about? There are a LOT of "Strong male and female characters" as well as a lot of non-sexualised and unsexist uses of women in videogames as well.

The issue is that we arn't at the levels we would like... The same with Sitcoms.

The whole issue here is the vast majority of female characters either fall into sexist tropes or are sexualised. It's the predominant trend for women in video games.

There are examples where they aren't, but start exploring the tropes and trends and it's pretty hard to feel good that a handful of games a year feature strong female characters, let alone protagonists. For many women wanting relatable or admirable or escapist female characters that's an issue. Which is behind the project behind this entire thread.

It's pretty much the opposite situation in sitcoms. While there are lots of examples of problematic characters there are no predominant trends that cut across the whole genre.

Not to mention that sitcoms aren't surrounded by a community and culture that further cements sexist attitudes and pushes away people who take issue with the problematic parts.

[Neonivek]

The whole issue here is the vast majority of female characters either fall into sexist tropes or are sexualised.

Well of course when you define what roles are "Sexist" it is quite easy.

[Reelya]

It's pretty much the opposite situation in sitcoms. While there are lots of examples of problematic characters there are no predominant trends that cut across the whole genre.

Not to mention that sitcoms aren't surrounded by a community and culture that further cements sexist attitudes and pushes away people who take issue with the problematic parts.

It's kinda meaningless to compare action games to a genre like TV sitcoms. Try comparing them to action films and it's not as different as you make out. The themes, settings, audience etc of both action games and action movies have a large overlap, and many of the prevalent problems are also shared.

Ask how you'd even make a worthwhile "sitcom game" and you might have something.

[palsch]

It's kinda meaningless to compare action games to a genre like TV sitcoms. Try comparing them to action films and it's not as different as you make out.

Just to try to be clear...

I wasn't even implying you can compare games to sitcoms. I was trying to deflate the idea that you can justify sexism in games by pointing at sitcoms and romcoms.

Well of course when you define what roles are "Sexist" it is quite easy.

Well maybe we could try having an extended discussion about the nature of sexism and sexist tropes rather than repeated derails about how men have it tough in the world of romantic comedies?

I'd say the lines are fairly clear, but I'm happy to have the discussion if other people are actually interested.

[Neonivek]

Well maybe we could try having an extended discussion about the nature of sexism and sexist tropes

We did that and there was no consensus reached.

There were some who believed that a trope could be sexist and others who believed that a trope could not be sexist and only through overuse could it be.

[DeKaFu]

So, here's a game coming out soon that a few actual real life female gamers that I know were interested in due to the company's pedigree (Odin Sphere, etc) but completely lost interest in due to the female playable character designs being so distractingly offensive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeCtJrWWK8g

Not trying to prove any sweeping points here, it's just a particular example that got to me.