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[Leafsnail]

I've watched that LP, I'm just confused about what makes it like a rape scene.

[Vector]

I can't really get it up on this particular slow-bus computer, but what I remember is a lot of loving closeups on Ocelot stabbing Snake with a knife and, well, basically writhing together as they're both electrocuted.

Possibly a better example--Snake's reaction whenever confronted by the B&B squad, where they're coming onto him and he acts helpless and horrified; there's also that weird medical examination scene in IV, also shot with strange closeups and with many of the slices between portions where Snake just happens to be slowly exhaling. . . and then he smokes a cigarette.

If you'd asked me about this two years ago I could have given you much better specifics--sorry.

[Reelya]

On the other hand, it just might be that overall, women are just not into gaming, just like they're not into hunting. It's why nobody is investing millions into romantic comedies that have men as the main target audience.

Nobody invests in rom coms with a male target audience? Japan would like to say otherwise (plenty of anime romantic comedies aimed at guys, in fact, too many to the point people roll their eyes at most offerings of that sub-genre). They're just structured differently than rom coms with a female target audience. That at least shows that there are untapped markets to rethink genres for a new audience, but at the same time, you can't just "gender-flip" the protagonists and expect it to work.

Red Sonja is basically a Conan film starring a woman. But idk if that's necessarily a good example of an action film for women. To make it have "cross gender" appeal you'd have to make significant changes to the whole film, to the point you'd be better off leaving Red Sonja as-is and making another, separate film, and you've probably created a new sub-genre by that point.

Anyway an aside related to film: Since we're mostly talking action games (plus rpgs based around combat), and action films are the closest analogue to this in cinema, what are good examples of action movies with females leads, good female fandom, and that also pass the bechdel test?

[DJ]

Anime isn't exactly wildly popular here, and romcom anime isn't even a blip on the radar. Weird things happen in Japan, but they really have no bearing on the West. Unless you're proposing we completely eradicate Western culture and replace it with Japanese one?

[Reelya]

Anime isn't exactly wildly popular here, and romcom anime isn't even a blip on the radar. Weird things happen in Japan, but they really have no bearing on the West. Unless you're proposing we completely eradicate Western culture and replace it with Japanese one?

None of those things have anything to do with what i said. What I said is that by rethinking genres, you can create new markets. But you can't just reverse genders in the existing formulas and expect it to work. That's nothing to do with anime specifically, or trying to say "everyone become Japanese" or some crap you're going on with as a strawman. Anime rom coms were just an example of the principle.

Anyway, given that you want to debate anime now, there is a fairly huge market for anime in the West as the 1000's of animes that have been dubbed into English attest - even fairly minor ones usually get the dub treatment. They don't do that as a charity service - they do it because there's a market for it - IN AMERICA.

As for romance anime, harem rom coms for guys get dubbed and sold in English a lot more than Shoujo romance for girls. To the point that even the shittiest guy's harem / rom coms have dubs, and the majority of Shoujo ones, even if they have really excellent writing, still aren't dubbed. Which kinda proves the "untapped market" idea.

[DJ]

They're still tiny, insignificant markets. It's only feasible because simply translating existing works is really cheap, and they're not exactly hiring top notch voice actors either. You couldn't make box art for a game with that kind of budget. Having a sliver of a percentage of general population doesn't make a viable market, else there'd be market for *everything*.

[Reelya]

Like I said, i'm not here to debate the pros and cons of anime marketing in America, other than to say, they're for sale, plenty of people are buying the stuff, so deal with it. 15 million copies of One Piece manga sold in America in 2010. 'nuff said. That's equally to about 2 months total sales of the top 300 DC and Marvel comics combined.. Anyway enough on that, i think the figures on manga sales speak for themselves.

I was making an example of how a genre traditionally considered to be for a specific demographic (or gender) can be rethought to appeal to a totally different demographic.

But it's not as simple as changing the gender of the protagonist, you have to revamp the entirety of the structure / tropes used in that genre. So, basically you end up with something totally different.

[DJ]

Yes, if you completely replace the existing culture. Do you really want to pull a Year Zero for the cause of feminism?

As for my self-contraction, you can also find female-targeted games in similar quantities, so I guess the problem we're discussing is non-existent so we can call it a day and go home.

[Reelya]

I don't even KNOW what you're talking about now with "replace the culture" and "year Zero".

what does that have to do with creating new genres to fill niches? The creation of Harem animes in Japan did NOT destroy any pre-existing culture, or deny the creation of new girl's romance series. They seem to coexist around the world without some apocalyptic cultural crisis, so I don't even know how you got from A to B in your argument here.

[DJ]

If romcoms for men had actual potential, they'd be made in America. The only reason you can find them at all in America is because dubbing is ridiculously cheap. They're made in Japan because Japan has a completely different culture. To make them big enough in America to make filming them worthwhile, you'd have to completely replace American culture with something more like Japanese culture, ie pull a Year Zero.

[penguinofhonor]

I'm sure people were saying stuff like that in Japan before romcoms for men existed there.

[DJ]

Well, they exist here, seeing how they're being imported from Japan, but somehow they just aren't taking.

[Reelya]

Well, you know, it's arguable that there are already romcoms which are partly targetted to guys in America. They just tend to be more slapstick and/or crude, that the ones aimed solely at females, which, you know, is pretty much exactly what harem animes are like:

There's Something About Mary
The 40-Year-Old Virgin
Groundhog Day
50 First Dates

[Neonivek]

Honestly there are two things that really annoy me about anime when it comes to women.

1) Is distracting fanservice... Spring loaded breasts, women bending over while the camera shows their butt, and other oddly placed fan service. I can ignore regular fanservice as I am rather tame that way (I don't find most things people find sexy, sexy...) but when the Camera points at someone's butt when there is no reason for them to... It is very distracting. The absolute worst anime for this, without it being a porn, is Ghost in a Shell.
and
2) Throwing women under the bus: DEAR GOODNESS the sheer number of times a competent woman is made incompetent or has their storyline thrown out is immense. If you want to see both of these, Kenshin (whos first part of the name escapes me) is the incompetent kind where the female lead who is a master swordsmen and has a warrior spirit greater then nearly all of Japan loses so often it is almost a parody of the action girl trope (She loses to random thugs). For "Throws the story out" it would be Yakkate Japan where the female lead's main storyline still exists but is completely subsumed by the main character, they do mention it quite a bit as a joke but frankly it didn't sound intentional (She also falls under the first in the sense that she is supposedly a prodigy but she never shows it the entire anime).

[DJ]

No, it's not romcoms being targeted towards men, it's a romance and a comedy mashed together to appeal to a wider demographic. Men don't care about the sappy parts. BTW, speaking of these movies, did you notice how it's always the man that does something idiotic and makes the big mess that drives the plot?