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[Putnam]

Just so we have some common ground... You do realize that if more games were made that are more approachable to women for consoles, then more women would play console games, right? When you aren't making games that are palatable to an audience, it makes sense that they won't be hitting for large numbers.
I mean this 25% figure isn't set in stone.

Maybe the female lack of interest is because people aren't making enough games for females...

why is the female representation in good communities so poor?!

Especially where concepts of gender do not apply in such games? I can't tell if this question's being ignored or if no one can come up with an answer.

It's probably a trickle effect from the bad communities. People get used to being treated like queens and/or pariahs when they out themselves as a woman.

[Loud Whispers]

Ok Max there's a critical failure somewhere along the line here. So you weren't replying to my question? It's not a new question, it's been an old one that's gone unanswered multiple times. I'm not quite sure what question you're answering, or why you're answering it to me when I'm asking about my question.

It's probably a trickle effect from the bad communities. People get used to being treated like queens and/or pariahs when they out themselves as a woman.

Probably is not good enough to rule out human beings acting like decent human beings and yet there still being some sort of "problem."

[Max White]

Oh ok, I think I see what was going on... For some reason you quoted me stating an opinion and then quoted yourself asking an unrelated question from several pages back and asked 'Why is nobody answering me!' right after I gave a reply to your other question that was related to the post where I gave my opinion.

Following that? Good...

[Loud Whispers]

That isn't what LW asked. You answered why it's important to have more female gamers than male, he asked why that isn't the case.

What? No I answered his question of 'Why is it important to have more female gamers than we have now' rather than having more than men. I never anywhere implied it was important to have more than men...

That's Lord Bucket's question.
Lord Bucket != Loud Whispers. Not that I don't mind becoming a hive mind collective of avatars, it just gets confusing when people start... Confusing.

I can only answer what is asked of me, not imaginary questions that are retconned into existence.

And the one I was asking was not Lord Bucket's. Wonderful. Now that's sorted.

That does not answer the question at all.

A good gaming community where gender is not an issue where female participation is encouraged does not see anything close to an equal f:m ratio.
Why is this?
That is the question.

What? No that isn't the question at all! I just addressed what the question was, and if it wasn't 'Why do we need more female gamers than men' then it certainly wasn't 'why will there always be more males than females in an equal community'
Unless that was a new question you were asking of me, and in that case I have no clue, why would you make assertions like that then expect me to find a reason when I don't even agree?

Frankly my philosophy on debates hasn't changed in the last minutes, so I'm going to pretend I'm Loud Bucket now and pose that very same "new" question up. It need not matter on whatever question you disagree on, that question is a very important one that could see actual progress if you'd want to see equal m:f ratios in gaming communities.

This does raise the issue of why you believe men and women to be so different as to divide personal characteristics into male/female as Sarkeesian did, even so much so that someone of the same species would be incapable of relating to a portrayal of them.
It's cementing differences in a negative way.

Because equal != the same.
Men and women often enjoy a different flavor of things, we see that in the popularity of movies. What you are saying right now is 'We only need action movies because a lot of men like action movies and if there is no difference between men and women, then a lot of women should like action movies so there is no problem!'
What is wrong with diversity here and peoples right to enjoy other things? I'm not saying no man will enjoy a game with a female protagonist.

Never mind that this is not the view you purport I hold, just so we can agree (since apparently discussions aren't allowed without agreeing anymore), what you are doing is saying action movies are liked by men so that in order to increase the number of women watching action movies to establish equality action movies need more female leads.
There are so many gaps in that I've heard no explanations for.
Slapping curves on the main character is your idea of diversity? Ok. I'd much rather there just be a whole range of film genres where people can watch, make and do whatever without regards to non-existent knobs and knobblettes.

Oh ok, I think I see what was going on... For some reason you quoted me stating an opinion and then quoted yourself asking an unrelated question from several pages back and asked 'Why is nobody answering me!' right after I gave a reply to your other question that was related to the post where I gave my opinion.

Following that? Good...

Well could you be any more patronizing? Your opinion was that the lack of female interest in games was because people weren't making games for females.
That's what I quoted.
I put up the same question which has been rather valid all the way through that even in games where gender is irrelevant there is appallingly low interest on the role of females' part.

You just said unrelated unbacked opinions and called it your answer.
Then you started rambling on about stuff I never asked about.

If you honestly think that making something along the lines of ACTION MOVIES for girls^TM is diversity and equality, woah boy.
Can you not just have the genres, the titles and not plaster subjective labels on them?

Now excuse me while I brew my tea. People these days, you'd think humility and courtesy is dead.

[Max White]

Oh right, you are different people...Sorry, I think I got confused from this.

Just so we have some common ground... You do realize that if more games were made that are more approachable to women for consoles, then more women would play console games, right? When you aren't making games that are palatable to an audience, it makes sense that they won't be hitting for large numbers.
I mean this 25% figure isn't set in stone.

Maybe the female lack of interest is because people aren't making enough games for females...

why is the female representation in good communities so poor?!

Especially where concepts of gender do not apply in such games? I can't tell if this question's being ignored or if no one can come up with an answer.

You are literally just quoting me for no apparent reason then asking why nobody is addressing you.
Sort of caught me off guard right when I was in the middle of another conversation.

[Loud Whispers]

You are literally just quoting me for no apparent reason then asking why nobody is addressing you.
Sort of caught me off guard right when I was in the middle of another conversation.

Just so we have some common ground... You do realize that if more games were made that are more approachable to women for consoles, then more women would play console games, right?

Assertion: The f:m ratio is indicative of games not catering to some special irreproachable factor.

Maybe the female lack of interest is because people aren't making enough games for females...

Opinion: lack of female interest in games is because of a lack of games for girls.

why is the female representation in good communities so poor?!

Especially where concepts of gender do not apply in such games? I can't tell if this question's being ignored or if no one can come up with an answer.

Good communities, approachable, no judgement, good mechanics, no special prejudice, female participation is positively encouraged, notions of the game being designed for a gender redundant; these exist, with low f:m ratios.

Argument: artificially flooding settings with female characters for the sake of equal representation makes no literary sense, humanitarian sense whilst also solidifying gender associations: "This game is designed for fe/males, therefore you'll enjoy it!"

[Max White]

Good communities, approachable, no judgement, good mechanics, no special prejudice, female participation is positively encouraged, notions of the game being designed for a gender redundant; these exist, with low f:m ratios.

What makes you think that these games exist in a high enough quantity to form a culture rather than some fringe niche that isn't big enough to be known?

Argument: artificially flooding settings with female characters for the sake of equal representation makes no literary sense, humanitarian sense whilst also solidifying gender associations: "This game is designed for fe/males, therefore you'll enjoy it!"

What makes you think that designing a game for a female audience is 'artificially flooding settings with female characters for the sake of equal'
Did I imply that the way you design a game for women is by taking any game and giving it a female protagonist?

[Neonivek]

What makes you think that designing a game for a female audience is

The issue with Female focused media is it often has the exact same problems in that it presents women in certain ways, usually in the form of what conflict arises out of the perception that "girls don't like conflict but guys do".

Dear goodness I diffuse one argument and a thousand others start up overnight... The WoW Sexy armor argument was more tame.

HOLY COW!!! I just finally understand what that Woman armor was supposed to be. It is the female version of a WoW version of the armor in Dead Space!

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Good communities, approachable, no judgement, good mechanics, no special prejudice, female participation is positively encouraged, notions of the game being designed for a gender redundant; these exist, with low f:m ratios.

What makes you think that these games exist in a high enough quantity to form a culture rather than some fringe niche that isn't big enough to be known?

They are the professional games. Where they go their emulators follow. They are the games that get media attention outside of blogs. They are in the mainstream, some have been for decades.

Argument: artificially flooding settings with female characters for the sake of equal representation makes no literary sense, humanitarian sense whilst also solidifying gender associations: "This game is designed for fe/males, therefore you'll enjoy it!"

What makes you think that designing a game for a female audience is 'artificially flooding settings with female characters for the sake of equal'
Did I imply that the way you design a game for women is by taking any game and giving it a female protagonist?

What is wrong with diversity here and peoples right to enjoy other things? I'm not saying no man will enjoy a game with a female protagonist.

Yes, yes you did.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

This topic definitely needs a chill session.

[Neonivek]

Ok here is something

Anyone here notice that Rape Horror is practically its own genre in videogames?

Dear goodness there are a lot of horror where the goal is not to be raped (or with a rape analogy) or where SOMETHING ends up rapey... and these are always towards women.

I cannot think of a rape horror game where the main character is male except possibly Darkseed.

[Vector]

Metal Gear.

[Neonivek]

Metal Gear.

That is a horror game?

[penguinofhonor]

Well you get your crotch grabbed more than in most games.

[Vector]

The horror of rape and physical violation in general?  Yes, absolutely.  There are a lot of scenes that are actually shot like rape scenes (looking at the fight between Liquid and Old Snake in MGS4, Act 3 in particular); the torture scenes are similar; the fight scenes are often explicitly related to sex; Snake's physical integrity is breached again and again, both by his enemies and by his handlers.

I wouldn't say that they are only about rape, but if the question is "something ends up rapey," then it qualifies; and they aren't really horror games, but are meant to establish a pervading sense of deep disquiet.