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[Max White]

Oh cool. Sorry for the insecurities, I just know I have a habit of debating in a way that makes life painful for all involved... Just ask vector, hoo boy, fun times... For me.

[LordBucket]

Not everyone on the same side shares an opinion. We didn't move the goalposts;
my goalposts are not the same as others.

Then don't post to disagree when I refute something said by somebody else that you don't agree with.

A perfect 50/50 is unattainable, but a margin of error of +-5% would be good.

I see. That's very interesting. Ok, so since...

 * 60% of college admissions are female to only 40% male
 * 59% of college graduates are female and only 41% are male
 * Women are ten times more likely to survive to age 110 than men
 * Women control 60% of US wealth and men control only 40% <-- forbes link, not some random blog. Google it.

...clearly these are all problems in need of fixing, yes? Or are you only interested in championing for women?

Sort of like the damsel in distress scenario that the video in the OP was complaining about? You see that women don't have equal representation and so you feel the need to rush to their defense, just like some dragon kidnapped them and you'll win smooches if you rescue them from evil business that don't cater to them?

If you really want equality for women, then stop putting them up on pedestals and trying to rescue them from everything. It's not the end of the world if a particular industry favors men. I'm sure more advertising dollars are spent marketing golf to men than women too. It's not a problem that requires fixing.

Yes, maybe more games have male than female protagonists. Why is that a problem that needs fixing?
Yes, maybe more action movies have male than female leads. Why is that a problem that needs fixing?

If you believe that yes, these are problems that need fixing, then...

Is it a problem that needs fixing that women control more wealth than men?
Is it a problem that needs fixing that more women get into college than men?
Is it a problem that needs fixing that more women graduate with degrees than men?
Is is a problem that needs fixing that women survive longer than men?

And if your answer here is no...then why the double standard?

[Reelya]

Ah, I understand!  Folks just happen to disproportionately create male characters and place them in the lead, and that has nothing to do with special rights.  Cool!  You have me convinced.

Disproportionately male leads for genres with disproportionately male player-base.

[Max White]

Do I mind a skewed figure for male protagonists? Not necessarily. A good story is a good story, and if a male protagonist fits in well with the story, well go with it. I think God of War, the first game, actually had a really interesting story that was made better with a male character. However, a lot of the time a story that would be made more interesting with a female protagonist instead is switched to male to try and appease an audience that is assumed to be so shallow and misogynistic that a game with a female protagonist won't sell. I'm sure that if we were picking our protagonists based on what would make for a good game, rather than to even some score sheet, we would end up with not only more female protagonists, but more diverse and interesting female protagonists, as well as more interesting male protagonists too.

The number of male to female protagonists isn't a cause, but a symptom, as such debating over this ratio isn't that constructive. The fact that we have more male characters than female isn't a problem, but is indicative of an underlying problem.

[LordBucket]

Disproportionately male leads for genres with disproportionately male player-base.

...ahh, but see...they respond to this with that 47% figure, even though it's already been pointed out that it's 47% overall with some subgenres like console games having as little as 25%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games

"According to a survey done in 2004 by the Entertainment Software Association, 25 percent of console players and 39 percent of PC game players were women. Also, 40 percent of online game players were women. According to a report by USA today 60 percent of female gamers played on mobile devices says a survey done by EEDAR. The same survey done by EEDAR also finds 63 percent of these female mobile gamers played online multiplayer mobile games"


In case it was missed:

" 60 percent of female gamers played on mobile devices"

So...like...angry birds?

[Max White]

Just so we have some common ground... You do realize that if more games were made that are more approachable to women for consoles, then more women would play console games, right? When you aren't making games that are palatable to an audience, it makes sense that they won't be hitting for large numbers.
I mean this 25% figure isn't set in stone.

Maybe the female lack of interest is because people aren't making enough games for females...

[LordBucket]

You do realize that if more games were made that are more approachable to women for
consoles, then more women would play console games, right?

That might be true, but why is it a desirable goal? You could probably get more female military applicants if you advertised maternity leave for soldiers. But why would you care enough to go out of your way to do such a thing?

The question has been asked a number of times by at least two people I've seen, and nobody's answered adequately: Why is it a desirable end result to have even gender proportions among gamers?

EDIT:
Here you go:

http://www.mobilemarketer.com/cms/news/gaming/2669.html

"Majority of mobile gamers are female"
" nearly two-thirds -- 65 percent -- female"

65% of mobile gamers are female, and 35% are male. Is this a problem that needs fixing? Would you have us take action to make mobile phone games more appealing to men?

No?

Then why do you care about the gender ratio of console gamers?

[Cheeetar]

* Women control 60% of US wealth and men control only 40% <-- forbes link, not some random blog. Google it.

I don't actually understand what that means, and the link you gave I'm finding a bit hard to understand. What does 'controlling' the wealth mean- in income, purchasing decisions, bank balance, or something else?

[Max White]

That might be true, but why is it a desirable goal?

Well it is good for women because it is creating culture that they can relate to.
It is good for games as an art because it creates more to draw from and experience.
It is good for the gamer community because it brings in diversity.
It is good for the industry, because it brings in more revenue from new audiences.
It is good for the security of games as a medium because people who hate games out of hand can no longer try to justify their irrationality by claiming games are sexist.

Need I go on?

" nearly two-thirds -- 65 percent -- female"

65% of mobile gamers are female, and 35% are male. Is this a problem that needs fixing? Would you have us take action to make mobile phone games more appealing to men?

No?

Then why do you care about the gender ratio of console gamers?

Maybe you should read some of my posts, you will find your answer several posts up.

[LordBucket]

What does 'controlling' the wealth mean- in income, purchasing decisions, bank balance, or something else?

TLDR version:
Women outnumber men, there are more women in the workforce than men, women own a majority of US stock, women live longer than men and inherit money more often, divorce settlements generally give real estate to women and houses are worth a lot.

Spoiler: longer version (click to show/hide)

Would like to point you to the source that Forbes is citing, but I'm having difficulty finding a copy.  It seems to come from a 2008 edition of US News and World Report if that helps.

Anyway, here are some relevant related articles:

http://www.supportingadvancement.com/vendors/canadian_fundraiser/articles/womens_affluence.htm

-- "Women account for more than 50 percent of all stock ownership in the United States. By 2010, women will account for half the private wealth in the country, or about $14 trillion. By 2020, you can expect that number to reach $22 trillion as wealth continues to shift from men to women."

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/behind-every-great-woman-01042012.html

-- "Women now fill a majority of jobs in the U.S., including 51.4 percent of managerial and professional positions, according to U.S. Census Bureau data."

-- "Women 30 and under make more money, on average, than their male counterparts in all but three of the largest cities in the U.S."

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t02.htm

-- "Men, 20 years and over: Unemployment rate 7.5"
-- "Women, 20 years and over: Unemployment rate 6.5"

http://www.paxworld.com/investment-advisors/women-and-wealth

 -- "Women are a major economic force. They represent 53% of the new hires in the U.S. since 2000 and are the breadwinners or co-breadwinners in two-thirds of American households."


A lot of these articles are 6-10 years old, and they pretty much all agree that the trend of wealth transfer from men to women was likely to continue. For example:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-400431/Women-millionaires-outnumber-men-15-years.html

"CEBR research Jaspreet Sehmi said: 'We estimate that by 2020, 53 per cent of millionaires will be female, with numbers boosted by comparative longetivity and by generous divorce settlements.'"

That was in 2006. So maybe it just happened sooner than expected.

Here it is in graphical form:

http://www.thejanedough.com/women-control-all-the-money/

In addition to actual legal ownership, in actual practice women routinely are the one's making financial decisions:

http://www.businessinsider.com/infographic-women-control-the-money-in-america-2012-2

-- "At home, the majority of women (90 percent) still control the family's purse strings, from stocking up on household items to having the final say on home and car purchases and health care. "

To give a personal example, I used to sell cars for Toyota. As part of the official company training program, they specifically taught that when couples came in, to focus on selling to the woman...because she was the one who would make the decision on whether to purchase.

[Loud Whispers]

Just so we have some common ground... You do realize that if more games were made that are more approachable to women for consoles, then more women would play console games, right? When you aren't making games that are palatable to an audience, it makes sense that they won't be hitting for large numbers.
I mean this 25% figure isn't set in stone.

Maybe the female lack of interest is because people aren't making enough games for females...

why is the female representation in good communities so poor?!

Especially where concepts of gender do not apply in such games? I can't tell if this question's being ignored or if no one can come up with an answer.

[Max White]

Nope, I already gave several answers. I'm waiting for somebody to ask for more so I can be all dramatic and make an even bigger list, and then somebody asks me to stop and I get to be a dick by making an even bigger list, until we get to a point where people are scared to undermine the importants of gender equity in a medium.

That might be true, but why is it a desirable goal?

Well it is good for women because it is creating culture that they can relate to.
It is good for games as an art because it creates more to draw from and experience.
It is good for the gamer community because it brings in diversity.
It is good for the industry, because it brings in more revenue from new audiences.
It is good for the security of games as a medium because people who hate games out of hand can no longer try to justify their irrationality by claiming games are sexist.

Need I go on?

[Graknorke]

That isn't what LW asked. You answered why it's important to have more female gamers than male, he asked why that isn't the case.

[Loud Whispers]

Nope, I already gave several answers. I'm waiting for somebody to ask for more so I can be all dramatic and make an even bigger list, and then somebody asks me to stop and I get to be a dick by making an even bigger list, until we get to a point where people are scared to undermine the importants of gender equity in a medium.

Why would answering a question be you being a dick?
_{[Genitalia being used as an insult too. As you can notice, no one cares. Why? How can this be translated to other people so as to create a world were people do not offend easy?]}

Well it is good for women because it is creating culture that they can relate to.
It is good for games as an art because it creates more to draw from and experience.
It is good for the gamer community because it brings in diversity.
It is good for the industry, because it brings in more revenue from new audiences.
It is good for the security of games as a medium because people who hate games out of hand can no longer try to justify their irrationality by claiming games are sexist.

Need I go on?

That does not answer the question at all.

A good gaming community where gender is not an issue where female participation is encouraged does not see anything close to an equal f:m ratio.
Why is this?
That is the question.

Though to be honest

Well it is good for women because it is creating culture that they can relate to.

This does raise the issue of why you believe men and women to be so different as to divide personal characteristics into male/female as Sarkeesian did, even so much so that someone of the same species would be incapable of relating to a portrayal of them.
It's cementing differences in a negative way.

It is good for the security of games as a medium because people who hate games out of hand can no longer try to justify their irrationality by claiming games are sexist.

That is just about as valid a reason as telling feminists to go call themselves egalitarianists so that people can't justify their irrationality by saying feminism is only about women's rights.

[Max White]

That isn't what LW asked. You answered why it's important to have more female gamers than male, he asked why that isn't the case.

What? No I answered his question of 'Why is it important to have more female gamers than we have now' rather than having more than men. I never anywhere implied it was important to have more than men...

You do realize that if more games were made that are more approachable to women for consoles, then more women would play console games, right?

See, I state that it is possible to have more women playing games, rather that stating that I want more women playing than men. So he replies

That might be true, but why is it a desirable goal?

So he wants to know why more female gamers is a good idea. Ok, I can do that...

Well it is good for women because it is creating culture that they can relate to.
It is good for games as an art because it creates more to draw from and experience.
It is good for the gamer community because it brings in diversity.
It is good for the industry, because it brings in more revenue from new audiences.
It is good for the security of games as a medium because people who hate games out of hand can no longer try to justify their irrationality by claiming games are sexist.

Need I go on?

There, I'm pretty sure that is addressing the question of why more female gamers is beneficial.

I can only answer what is asked of me, not imaginary questions that are retconned into existence.

That does not answer the question at all.

A good gaming community where gender is not an issue where female participation is encouraged does not see anything close to an equal f:m ratio.
Why is this?
That is the question.

What? No that isn't the question at all! I just addressed what the question was, and if it wasn't 'Why do we need more female gamers than men' then it certainly wasn't 'why will there always be more males than females in an equal community'
Unless that was a new question you were asking of me, and in that case I have no clue, why would you make assertions like that then expect me to find a reason when I don't even agree?

Well it is good for women because it is creating culture that they can relate to.

This does raise the issue of why you believe men and women to be so different as to divide personal characteristics into male/female as Sarkeesian did, even so much so that someone of the same species would be incapable of relating to a portrayal of them.
It's cementing differences in a negative way.

Because equal != the same.
Men and women often enjoy a different flavor of things, we see that in the popularity of movies. What you are saying right now is 'We only need action movies because a lot of men like action movies and if there is no difference between men and women, then a lot of women should like action movies so there is no problem!'
What is wrong with diversity here and peoples right to enjoy other things? I'm not saying no man will enjoy a game with a female protagonist.