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Author Topic: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'  (Read 312915 times)

Reelya

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #780 on: April 06, 2013, 02:47:42 am »

But your statement was that WoW specifically only allowed "Boob plate" armor. Which isn't supported by the armor designs I'm seeing.

Saying "every X has feature Y" isn't proved by someone finding a counter-example.

So now you're saying your WoW statement wasn't about WoW at all? Talk about moving the goalposts.

Vector

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #781 on: April 06, 2013, 02:47:47 am »

Hooo crap I am getting a bit too tired.  Apologies all around.
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #782 on: April 06, 2013, 02:49:29 am »

But your statement was that WoW specifically only allowed "Boob plate" armor. Which isn't supported by the armor designs I'm seeing.

Saying "every X has feature Y" isn't proved by someone finding a counter-example.

So now you're saying your WoW statement wasn't about WoW at all? Talk about moving the goalposts.

What moved Goalposts? All the armors have boob plate and some even have exposed mid-drift

and not only that but the decreased sexualisation is only there because their fanbase mocked them ceaselessly.

Meaning not only does my original statement still stand but it only proves my point further when you add context.

Mind you the reason WoW cannot remove boobplates is because of how they do their modeling. It leads to some weird situations where characters suddenly increased their endowments.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 02:53:08 am by Neonivek »
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Reelya

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #783 on: April 06, 2013, 02:53:40 am »

Well you specifically compared the outfits to Conan's so implying chainmail bikini type outfits.

And you did not say "boob plate" or anything like that in the post LordBucket responded to, that's new, hence you've moved the goalposts:

From "conan style" outfits, to "vaguely boob visible under heavy plate armor".

EDIT: Ah so there's some technical reason, probably due to the fact that females have breasts and the realities of computer modelling? Can't really blame WoW for that then??

Anyway, if you knew the toned it down, it makes it even more misleading to blanket say "every woman in WoW" since that is not the case now.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 02:56:49 am by Reelya »
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Max White

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #784 on: April 06, 2013, 02:54:46 am »

Now I have never played WoW, so I thought I would do some quick research. I looked on a WoW wiki for female armor sets, and found the following...
So aparently this is called a Black Mageweave set. Ok, now to see if the male set is actually vastly different and females are getting the short end of the stick, or if it is just the armour set.

So on the page for the armour, I found this
Spoiler: Much safter for work (click to show/hide)
So yea, turns out that the female character was just wearing the vest and not skirt, so that explains why she wasn't wearing a skirt, rather than any attempt to make female characters into fan service.


If you can equip your character how ever you like, there will always be somebody running about without pants on. This isn't a game being sexist, this is some kid being immature.
Do a little research, and sometimes there is more to a story...

Rolan7

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #785 on: April 06, 2013, 02:54:46 am »

I do get the impression that you are overestimating the amount of female protagonists.

Am I? I just went through and checked all the games I have on my computer and/or have played in the week past. Out of seventeen games, only one of them has a male-only protagonist. And incidentally, one has a female-only protagonist.

In the last month I've played Borderlands 2, Killing Floor, Left 4 Dead 2, The Binding of Isaac, Bionic Commando, Zeno Clash, and a tiny amount of Just Cause 2.  (My steam account name is Tavros *KB*)

As you can see, the games we've personally played recently are not at all representative of the entire catalog of video games that are out there.

Even that list of supposedly female-dominated games contained more males than females.

Make up your mind what you're unhappy about. If you're now suddenly requiring that games be "female dominated" I think you may be crossing into territory very different from what you originally intended. If a game has either a female protagonist or the option to play one, ...but you still find it "offensive" because it has more secondary male characters than secondary female characters...at some point I think you're just trying way too hard to find something to be angry about.

I meant "dominated" in the statistical sense, wherein there are more of one thing than another.  That list was supposed to show how common female protagonists are, and I was showing that many of the examples contained a majority of male main characters rather than female.

Again, the point was not that any game was sexist for having male leads.  It's that female leads are rare, in general, when you look at video games as a whole.  I fanboyed hard over Left 4 Dead and Borderlands, and they each have 25% female leads.

Quote
imagine your game collection is 10% as large, and you have to wait ten times as long before a new game you're actually eager for is released.  It's not that the game industry is small or lazy, just that 90% of the games out there feature gigantic throbbing penises or something.  For the sake of this example I'm going to assume that would be a distraction to you, and make it hard to get invested in the game.  A lot of people don't even *want* the penises, but they keep buying because they like video games.  You can either settle for the 10% of games that pander to you, or you can give in and fund more penis productions.  (You'll probably have better luck with indie games, which is great if you don't need the production values, support, and online communities that come with triple-A titles)

I understand the analogy, but my sample group doesn't support that kind of view. What is the content that you're claiming that 90% of games have that corresponds to gigantic throbbing penises? Are you talking about boobs?

Sorta.  Unrealistically large boobs, unrealistically revealing armor, even unrealistically perfect makeup.  These things can distract from the supposed purpose of the games they're in - which is a strong majority of all games.

Quote
Too many strong female characters are bizarrely large breasted and underclothed, and we know exactly why.  It's immersion breaking.  *I* don't want to play as some teenager's wank-fuel.  It's downright offensive to ME that the developers think I, as a guy, require every woman to look like this. 

...ok. maybe you're talking about boobs. Personally, I like boobs.

Sure, boobs are pretty great.  I'm talking about characters who are over-sexualized to the detriment of their character development and the believability of the narrative.

Bucket, the problem isn't with any individual game. It's that the majority of games have a huge majority of male characters.
Why is this a problem?
Because the huge majority of reality has a small majority of females?
There is a tiny amount of women in proportion to reality? What?

Would it make more sense if he said slim majority?  He's saying that in reality there are slightly more women than men, in contrast to video games where the heroes (and even characters in general) are overwhelmingly male.
I thought the intention was pretty clear.

Edit: Can I just say that I love the Bionic Commando remake?  It's a power trip in all the best ways.  I get to swing through beautiful forests and buildings, fling people over ledges with a grapple, and absorb way more than the daily recommended value of lead.  It's kinda like Just Cause, Spiderman, and Prototype.  Women are out of luck, though, because there isn't a similar game with a female lead.  How many times will the idea be rehashed with a male hero before, finally, they produce a badass female heroine... with jiggle physics and short shorts.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 03:10:00 am by Rolan7 »
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #786 on: April 06, 2013, 02:58:42 am »

Quote
Do a little research, and sometimes there is more to a story

Actually if you know the context of the complaints. In the early days of WoW what happened was that female versions of male armor were sexualised inspite being the exact same armor. Some where the difference was freekish.

Mostly this is caused by the female model they used (essentially women couldn't wear real armor because they had to have form fitting armor)

I don't have to shift a single inch on my stance.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 03:03:01 am by Neonivek »
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Max White

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #787 on: April 06, 2013, 03:03:26 am »

Ah, well I don't know much about WoW history... If something was one way in the past and then changed, it is beyond my scope of debate.

Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #788 on: April 06, 2013, 03:04:34 am »

Ah, well I don't know much about WoW history... If something was one way in the past and then changed, it is beyond my scope of debate.

To my knowledge it still hasn't changed. Diminished but it is still a factor. Even looking at that Season 9.

For example what kind of armor was the one Lord Bucket posted? Leather armor?
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LordBucket

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #789 on: April 06, 2013, 03:05:02 am »

they only added less sexualised armor after people complained over and over

You're being silly. Here's some original T1 armor:

Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #790 on: April 06, 2013, 03:08:09 am »

Given that while I look at your post Lord Bucket and you sound sarcastic to me... (Given that three of those are perfect examples)

I think we have no room to manuver so I'll drop my point.
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Max White

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #791 on: April 06, 2013, 03:10:19 am »

Anybody got an example of the same armor for the male body set?

Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #792 on: April 06, 2013, 03:11:53 am »

Anybody got an example of the same armor for the male body set?

No we dropped it. I admit I was wrong and this topic is over.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #793 on: April 06, 2013, 03:21:25 am »

Would it make more sense if he said slim majority?  He's saying that in reality there are slightly more women than men, in contrast to video games where the heroes (and even characters in general) are overwhelmingly male.
I thought the intention was pretty clear.
Not really. I asked why it was a problem that for certain genres there was a majority of male leads. He said because irl demographics usually place more women than men in the world.
That didn't clear anything up for me at all.

Edit: Can I just say that I love the Bionic Commando remake?  It's a power trip in all the best ways.  I get to swing through beautiful forests and buildings, fling people over ledges with a grapple, and absorb way more than the daily recommended value of lead.  It's kinda like Just Cause, Spiderman, and Prototype.  Women are out of luck, though, because there isn't a similar game with a female lead.  How many times will the idea be rehashed with a male hero before, finally, they produce a badass female heroine... with jiggle physics and short shorts.
And now we're criticizing theoretical misogyny.

Mostly this is caused by the female model they used (essentially women couldn't wear real armor because they had to have form fitting armor)
I would like to see a change away from form fitting armour just for the sake of realism alone. Unless it's fancy noble stuff of course.

There are more women than men in most places by a small margin, is what I meant.
Yes and I still don't see why this is a problem that translates to giving special rights to female characters. I'd much rather there just be an attitude where people didn't care one bit about being able to or not being able to play a game because of virtual genitalia.

And because I never really got an answer nor did anyone else, why is it that in piss-poor communities males frequent them and indeed sustain them, whilst even in good communities that actively encourage female participation - there is a large gap of the m:f ratio?

Putnam

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #794 on: April 06, 2013, 03:27:57 am »

Being represented in a realistic manner is not "special rights".
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