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[Neonivek]

I'm saying that men should not be control any more than women should.

Well yeah.

It is why the male steriotypes are also damaging to both genders.

[alexandertnt]

No, you can't draw that as a categorical conclusion from the self-reporting data. You're omitting a step, and that invalidates you conclusion. Basically you're adding an assumption that doesn't existi in your source, that the reporting rates are consistent between the two genders, when in fact many sources say males under-report on a range of similar things.

You are assuming that it is self-reported data, you are adding the assumption.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It doesn't invalidate my claim that based on current evidence women are more likely to attempt suicide.

I'm just wondering why you present this as significant, when it is only a result of women also being more likely to survive suicide attempts.

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This (sexism) is pretty much dead in modern mainstream games.

I searched up some lists of the top mainstream games and got directed to these:
http://www.cpugamer.com/editorial/the-top-10-mainstream-pc-games-of-2011
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-01-23-the-most-popular-games-on-xbox-live-in-2012-were

Whether it be the heroic valkyrie cogs of Gears of War to the silent protagonist of Chell from Portal or simply the background characters of Magicka or Dead Space, Anita's video does not apply to or is downright subverted by modern mainstream games. Never mind it awakening the internet hate machine or it being about as useful as telling the Bioshock team they're racists for creating a game where you throw baseballs at a mixed race couple.

Wait, objectification and sexism are gone in modern games? Sure, if you ignore tons of major mainstream titles. For starters, here's a compilation of the cutscenes from Batman: Arkham Asylum, which shows how their female characters were represented. Catwoman

Frees herself and goes around overcoming obstacles, acting entirely independent of batman (much to his horror).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

She even saves his life.
In game she negotiates a deal with Ivy after accidentally killing one of her special plants. No one else has done this before. She takes down countless amounts of TYGER guards. She pulls batman out of the rubble.
Afterwards her house explodes, prompting her to get out of unconsciousness and beat up the thugs who just blew up her house. Then she punches two-face in the faces. Knocking him out.
Catwoman's sexual flaunting makes more sense than batman's ab armour:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In that she actually uses it to her advantage, namely that of breaking bones.
She is a prime character with her own story, backstory and in short, character. She has flaws, she has strengths.

Harley Quinn

Harley being an object to be won? You do realize that cutscene is Harley being an absolute sociopath to manipulate batman into believing there is no threat?! She's a horrific villain in that not only is she brutally cunning, but she is a victim of the joker. Albeit, a very, very dangerous victim. She is very clearly fucking batshit insane, no pun intended, and her unconditional love for the joker is presented as insane.

Talia al Ghul

Ra's Al Ghul, her father, in universe is misogynist and does believe women to be inferior to men. Yet he appointed her his second in command because she far exceeded her siblings. Her getting lovey over the batman is a result of the two actually having a romantic past, which her father exploits. Standalone from any fluff, she is the leader of a powerful organisation of assassins, incredibly skilled on her own whilst retaining a compassionate empathy streak.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

She is the one to give batman the cure to the poison, and is never actually confirmed dead.

Her father is literally a 600 year old patriarch and is one of the villains. Yep, really supporting sexism there.

You also cite Portal as an example, though it came out over 5 years ago.

Did you even look at the links? Portal 2. The series is called Portal. Anita talks about mute protagonists being vessels for male players to project themselves into, while they exert their power over the female damsel. Portal has Chell as our mute female protagonist who thinks with portals, is demonstrated to be a savant of science from a child's age (her decade old super potato much?) and screws around with a supercomputer AI/Carol that killed an entire facility full of scientists and guards and everyone else.

A few games that came out since: Dead or Alive Xtreme 2

Calling it a game is a big stretch. Japan' making more boob content with game filler. Which is why it didn't get mainstream popularity.

Bayonetta

Ha ha ha Bayonetta, I'm glad you brought this one up. You're playing as Bayonetta. That's you, with the awesome groove.

"One of the most brilliant things about this backstory is how the two clans are portrayed. The Umbra Witches aren't necessarily evil so much as they are an important part of the universe's balance. The game, after all, is mostly about Bayonetta killing the angelic legions that stand in her way to the truth, but I never felt evil or diabolical while playing. It is just Bayonetta's purpose, and she fulfills that purpose with extreme skill.

Bayonetta is one of the coolest female characters I've ever come across in gaming. Although her sexuality is highlighted at almost every turn (which might lead gamers to believe she's a stereotypical heroine), she is also immensely powerful, calm and confident. Bayonetta is one of my main reasons to play the game, as she's just terribly fun to watch."

It's unabashedly sexual. Incredibly sexual even. She gets bucket-loads of character development and is a good example of a game that's both serious and whimsical with sexualized characters that aren't reduced to objects. You can really empathize with her. You couldn't do that with a sexy lamp or a sexy shoe.

Duke Nukem Forever.

Because people took Duke Nukem seriously and it was a good game that everyone liked oh wait massive disappointment piece of shit that no one will remember because fuck why would they even make it in the first place it is 100% hype and oh-.

And upcoming games are no different. According to the devs, "You'll want to protect the new Laura Croft". Their upcoming Tomb Raider reboot will have the players "protecting" a more naive and vulnerable Laura Croft. Apparently this includes protecting her against rape attempts.

Ah what the shit. This, this cannot stand. THIS FUCKING CHARACTER ASSASSINATION. IT RAEGES ME. YOU CAN'T DO THAT. I WILL BURN YO-

"The ability to see her as a human is even more enticing to me than the more sexualized version of yesteryear,"

Less sexualization?

"She's definitely the hero but— you're kind of like her helper,"

You are literally helping her?

Sounds dodgy. This may possibly be the worst thing since Samusgate. Time will tell. If big company designers make the same mistake again and again, something must burn. Burrrnnn.

So no, I'm sorry, but you are completely and entirely wrong.

I have a personal philosophy of not holding any information up to someone's image, it's why I like anonymous discussions: It's very hard to discredit or prove any one point solely based off of one's misdemeanors or merits, you get pure distilled discussion of information.

[Glowcat]

It doesn't invalidate my claim that based on current evidence women are more likely to attempt suicide.

I'm just wondering why you present this as significant, when it is only a result of women also being more likely to survive suicide attempts.

It's significant when, from what I've surmised, Reelya was arguing that gender disparities in income don't amount to much when more men are committing suicide. This would imply that men are suffering more under the system. His information wasn't correct and even contrary to the best supported truth we have available. I could be wrong but given how he's apparently tried to defend that claim instead of clarifying that he meant something else I don't think I read his meaning incorrectly.

[Reelya]

No, you can't draw that as a categorical conclusion from the self-reporting data. You're omitting a step, and that invalidates you conclusion. Basically you're adding an assumption that doesn't existi in your source, that the reporting rates are consistent between the two genders, when in fact many sources say males under-report on a range of similar things.

You are assuming that it is self-reported data, you are adding the assumption.

The most detailed available sources say that it's based on reported rates by the women themselves (number of attempts in a lifetime etc). I can't find a single source that says they have proof. If glowcat has a source other than the obvious ones, let him show it.

CDC data about recorded suicide rates shows nothing like a "women are 3 times more likely to attempt suicide" rate:

http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2012/04/26/gender-differences-in-suicide-rp/

[UPDATE: ozy has helpfully clarified in the comments to the NoH version of this post that she was not basing her remark about men and women attempting suicide at roughly the same rate on the erroneous ‘flipped ratio’ logic, but rather on CDC figures which indicate that there were 616,000 female attempts and 484,000 male attempts in the U.S. during one recent year.]

So, i'd take it that females are maybe a little more likely to attempt suicide, but nothing like the "3 times" ratio often cited, and males under-report failed attempts (not very manly to botch a suicide attempt).

[Loud Whispers]

If we're going to discuss sexism and its influence on suicide, can we please discuss suicide among both genders as a serious issue and find and address causes so we can mitigate them, instead of toting them around in some out-suffering contest? You lot are drawing lines where there should be none.

What happened to unity?

[i2amroy]

Just to straighten out a few suicide facts:
1)Women are much more likely then men to attempt suicide
2)Men are much more likely then women to successfully suicide (successful vs. attempts)
3)Men are more likely to use a violent method to suicide
4)Women are more likely to use a method such as OD to suicide
5)Men are more likely to attempt suicide in order to kill themselves (sounds a little redundant, I know)
6)Women are more likely to attempt suicide as a "cry for help"
7)Men are more likely to have thought a suicide totally out then women, and are more likely to arrange for those they care for to be taken care of after their death then women are for that same reason.

Also I totally agree with Loud Whispers here. Suicide cannot be used as a "this gender has it worse" argument. In fact with regards to talking sexism you shouldn't even be using a "this gender has it worse" argument in the first place, since suffering is inherently personalized and it's definition depends deeply on the person.

[Reelya]

My point bringing up suicide was that neither gender has it all rosy, whereas the other one is 100% oppressed, i didn't expect it to become a big thing :/ Now, i believe if something against women had been brought up and i countered with "men have that bad too!" I'd be labelled unsympathetic to the females.

And the quote in this article makes it clear that the "3 times more likely" statistic is from self-reporting, and there is no actual source for the data to check it against:
www.feministcritics.org/blog/2012/04/26/gender-differences-in-suicide-rp/

I did some research to find good raw data on both completed and attempted suicides to make the case clear. Unfortunately, it is in fact hard to find good data about suicide attempts. This Policy Almanca link includes the following statements:

    –There are an estimated 8-25 attempted suicides to one completion; the ratio is higher in women and youth and lower in men and the elderly

    –More women than men report a history of attempted suicide, with a gender ratio of 3:1

Basically many articles are citing this study, but simplifying it from "report" to "do", without any concrete evidence. Then you have the CDC data:

CDC figures which indicate that there were 616,000 female attempts and 484,000 male attempts in the U.S. during one recent year.

Which isn't anything like times 3.

[penguinofhonor]

Yeah, we're beyond the point of recovery here. It was good while it lasted!

[Loud Whispers]

Yeah, we're beyond the point of recovery here. It was good while it lasted!

I'm sorry what? The thread is still on rails. Stop trying to kill it please?

Inb4 flamewar
Inb4 lock

It's almost like you don't want a civil discussion :/

I've seen the sexism against men thing. It stops being a discussion at that point and starts being two groups trying to prove that sexism against men/women is worse. Nobody's opinion ever changes, nobody ever gets convinced by the other group's arguments, so in my opinion it's not typically a discussion worth having.

Ok then. It's just the posts that keep recurring every 200 posts or so of a thread that literally add nothing of value except to say "dis gonna burn" that annoy me. It only takes one to trigger a self fulfilling prophecy.

In any case the discussion was getting somewhere - understanding. It affects everyone in different ways, these ways and their causes can be understood and everyone goes out of the discussion that much more understanding.

[penguinofhonor]

Yeah, we're beyond the point of recovery here. It was good while it lasted!

I'm sorry what? The thread is still on rails. Stop trying to kill it please?

I've seen the sexism against men thing. It stops being a discussion at that point and starts being two groups trying to prove that sexism against men/women is worse. Nobody's opinion ever changes, nobody ever gets convinced by the other group's arguments, so in my opinion it's not typically a discussion worth having.

[Glowcat]

the CDC data isn't "much more likely", at least for confirmed attempts. a little more likely though. My point bringing up suicide was that neither gender has it all rosy, whereas the other one is 100% oppressed.

It doesn't have to be much more likely for your original assertion to have factual errors. You seemed to be trying to make it a major point.

If we're going to discuss sexism and its influence on suicide, can we please discuss suicide among both genders as a serious issue and find and address causes so we can mitigate them, instead of toting them around in some out-suffering contest? You lot are drawing lines where there should be none.

What happened to unity?

It isn't a contest... I was attempting to straighten his facts out.

[alexandertnt]

the CDC data isn't "much more likely", at least for confirmed attempts. a little more likely though. My point bringing up suicide was that neither gender has it all rosy, whereas the other one is 100% oppressed.

Nobody would want to trivialise suicide at all regardless of gender.

Most of the issue was with making faulty arguments (such as assuming the wikipedia draws it's conslusion from "self-reported" data, despite not actually providing any proof of this)

I've seen the sexism against men thing. It stops being a discussion at that point and starts being two groups trying to prove that sexism against men/women is worse. Nobody's opinion ever changes, nobody ever gets convinced by the other group's arguments, so in my opinion it's not typically a discussion worth having.

Sexism is bad, full stop. But this thread is about "Tropes vs Women in Video Games", so it is not unfair to expect most of the discussion to be about women.

[Reelya]

the CDC data isn't "much more likely", at least for confirmed attempts. a little more likely though. My point bringing up suicide was that neither gender has it all rosy, whereas the other one is 100% oppressed.

Nobody would want to trivialise suicide at all regardless of gender.

Most of the issue was with making faulty arguments (such as assuming the wikipedia draws it's conslusion from "self-reported" data, despite not actually providing any proof of this)

This is the very first quote i provided:

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=84760

Suicide was the 8th leading cause of death for males and the 19th leading cause of death for females in 2000.1 More than four times as many men as women die by suicide,1 although women report attempting suicide during their lifetime about three times as often as men.

Which is the first link i cited, along with the other link i cited in the last page, both state that the 3-1 claim is from the self-reported data. The second link from feminist critics actually shows how the 3-1 self-reporting statistics got mutated into "3 times more likely" and similar in other media reports. This makes the source of the statistic itself dubious. The CDC data is much closer to parity, about 1.2:1 rather than 3:1.

There's also the issue of repeated attempts: the "3 times" statistics doesn't state whether 3 times as many females are trying to commit suicide, or these same female having 3 times as many attempts as the average male (due to males succeeding more often on first attempt). So it could be a relatively small number of females reporting multiple failed attempts (successful suiciders were not included in the survey for logistical reasons of being dead).