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[Neonivek]

The reverse bechdel test is also important in that almost all media passes it. Even things that are very often targeted solely at women pass the reverse test more often than gender neutral things pass the normal test.

Well I can certainly think of a lot of shows that pass the Bechdel Test (Any show that has a large continuous cast passes most of the time)

But I can't think of a "woman's show" that passes the reverse test with honesty. Not Sex in the City, Not Jem and the Holograms (The only time the male characters talk to eachother is because of another woman), Not My Little Pony (Smurf rule though), Not Dora the Explora (ok that is more ungendered and has a SMALL continuous cast), not charmed... Touched by an Angel ONLY counts if we are including their job but otherwise doesn't count. Strawberry Shortcake doesn't (but it RARELY has two males on the same screen so it may count as Smurf Syndrome).

Winx passes but usually not... all the guys end up talking about is the girls eventually. Sailormoon has almost NEVER had two males on the screen at once.

Dear goodness I have to think of a good pure example... I am not going to let it drop! Dang it! If Jane and the Dragon wasn't what I'd consider Unisex it would count BARELY.

[Vector]

Yeah, and now think about video games.

[Neonivek]

Yeah, and now think about video games.

Goodness there are no videogames marketed towards girls that have two males talk to eachother... EVER!

Not even Kings Quest 7 did any male speak to another male and that game could be considered unisex.

Mind you with videogames the test is the weakest since most of the time only the hero and villain can initiate and they are such blackholes of importance that there isn't much else to talk about.

[Glowcat]

WTF is this shit? When did i reference the gender gap at all?

Damn straight. More males commit suicide that females. Try telling those guys they had it good because someone else was a CEO.

This looked to me as if you were dismissing wage inequality as an issue in gender discussions based on male suicides.

[Ogdibus]

.

[Rolan7]

I read the thread over the course of the day, and huh.  I really feel like I learned things, and had my opinion swayed by persuasive arguments.  There were rough patches of course, but generally, good work y'all.

I don't really have much to add, except that I'll continue voting with my wallet.

[Solifuge]

Yeah, the Bechdel Test never specifies media marketed for boys or girls. It relates to any media at all. Thus:

Can you think of any games in which two named male characters talk about something that isn't a woman? Most games that have dialogue, and 2 or more characters satisfy this.

Now, can you think of any games in which there are two named female characters, who talk about something that isn't a man?

[Vector]

I can tell you that none of my favorite games other than Portal do, and it helps that there aren't any male characters at all in that one.

PS: Rolan7, I love your sigs.

[Reelya]

WTF is this shit? When did i reference the gender gap at all?

Damn straight. More males commit suicide that females. Try telling those guys they had it good because someone else was a CEO.

This looked to me as if you were dismissing wage inequality as an issue in gender discussions based on male suicides.

First, I was saying you can't lump every "male" together - privilege is something individuals possess, but people choose to generalize when it suits them.

Second, look at the actual data on wage inequality. When all external factors are considered it's 1-2% difference. Much of the existing difference is related to choice: A sizable number of women don't choose to work 80 hour per week jobs for 30 years, many want to raise a family, so they take leave or drop their hours, or choose professions where you're not expected to work ridiculous hours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap

United States

In the United States, the gender pay gap is measured as the ratio of female to male median yearly earnings among full-time, year-round (FTYR) workers. The female-to-male earnings ratio was 0.77 in 2009, meaning that, in 2009, female FTYR workers earned 77% as much as male FTYR workers. Women's median yearly earnings relative to men's rose rapidly from 1980 to 1990 (from 60.2% to 71.6%), and less rapidly from 1990 to 2000 (from 71.6% to 73.7%) and from 2000 to 2009 (from 73.7% to 77.0%).[15][16]

The raw wage gap data shows that a woman would earn roughly 73.7% to 77% of what a man would earn over their lifetime. However, when controllable variables are accounted for, such as number of children, and the frequency at which unpaid leave is taken, in addition to other factors, The U.S. Department of Labor found in 2008 that the gap can be brought down from 23% to between 4.8% and 7.1%.[17] Furthermore, The United States Government Accountability Office found in 2009 that when accounting for variables including chosen occupation, education, and experience, the variable wage gap can be brought to roughly 1-2%.[18]

There are factors in the average earnings of women like the fact that they take a lot more leaves of absence than men. It's not realistic to expect earnings to be 1:1 when one group is - mostly voluntarily - taking more leave than another group. As long as we have biological children (and you can't really get away from the reproductive realities), there will be a gap in hours worked, and pay. Sure we can minimize the gap, but probably never eliminate it, so what's needed is to determine how much of a gap is acceptable. One study found that women take more sick days than men. Should we bump women's per hour pay above men to make sure they earn the same overall?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8534796/Women-take-more-sick-days-than-men.html

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I can tell you that none of my favorite games other than Portal do, and it helps that there aren't any male characters at all in that one.

If you want to get technical, GLaDOS is an AI and Chell doesn't talk.

[Solifuge]

Hey, look who it is again!

She suggests a few revisions to the test that helps eliminate some technicalities.

EDIT: Wrong link, sorry. Fixed!

[Vector]

I can tell you that none of my favorite games other than Portal do, and it helps that there aren't any male characters at all in that one.

If you want to get technical, GLaDOS is an AI and Chell doesn't talk.

Right, I forgot about the whole Chell not talking thing.

Actually, I forgot about my favorite JRPGs (haven't played 'em for a while).  I honestly think that feminism vis-a-vis Japanese media has to take a completely different shape than feminism vis-a-vis Western media.  They've got different endemic problems.


EDIT: Also, wage gap.

You know, the thing about women not working 80-hour weeks is that maybe, just maybe, if we factored in the work hours expected of women in terms of housework and child care, we'd understand exactly how much work is expected of a woman.

[Neonivek]

Yeah, the Bechdel Test never specifies media marketed for boys or girls. It relates to any media at all. Thus:

Can you think of any games in which two named male characters talk about something that isn't a woman? Most games that have dialogue, and 2 or more characters satisfy this.

Now, can you think of any games in which there are two named female characters, who talk about something that isn't a man?

Let me see a videogame where two named women talk about something that isn't a man.

Most games where the main character is female (the ones that don't fulfill this usually is because of a limited cast)

So lets go to games with a male protagonist and where two females will speak to eachother not about a man. Tactics Ogre, Suikeoden all, Graffiti Kingdom, Magic Pengel, Soul Calibur, Dissidia, Final Fantasy 8, Mortal Kombat (the new one), Dynasty Warriors, Disgaea (all of dem).

Actually, I forgot about my favorite JRPGs (haven't played 'em for a while).  I honestly think that feminism vis-a-vis Japanese media has to take a completely different shape than feminism vis-a-vis Western media.  They've got different endemic problems

The best way to understand it is that the Japanese arn't any more progressive when it comes to women and that the reason they have so much great media with women involved has more to do with the fact that they have much better marketing then we do.

Japan is in transition.

[Vector]

Can you think of any non-Japanese games, though, Neonivek?

I realize that this looks like I'm just moving the goalposts, but I think there's a really significant disparity of tropes employed in video games across western vs. eastern media.  Japan still likes the whole "damsel in distress" thing a lot.  America's more into the whole unarmored babe thing.

[Neonivek]

Can you think of any non-Japanese games, though, Neonivek?

I realize that this looks like I'm just moving the goalposts, but I think there's a really significant disparity of tropes employed in video games across western vs. eastern media.  Japan still likes the whole "damsel in distress" thing a lot.  America's more into the whole unarmored babe thing.

I don't really mind... but you want American games? Are we including or excluding games with female protagonists?

Because I have enough experience with female protagonist genres to get a list of American games where two named females speak to eachother about "Not a man"