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[Flying Dice]

Chose the title carefully, or it'll be a disaster.  x3

"Men are second class citizens and need to take back society and masculinity. Discuss." 

[MetalSlimeHunt]

And no amount of Male CEOs changes that. Especially since one thing I said earlier is that sexism towards males dirrectly affects women. Abuse towards women has a dirrect link to the way we enforce gender roles upon men.

Damn straight. More males commit suicide that females. Try telling those guys they had it good because someone else was a CEO.

...More men succeed at suicide. Because they're more likely to have access to guns. Women still attempt suicide more often.

That's not a legitimate explanation, since the suicide rate is much higher for males even in cultures where gun ownership is banned.

The actual explanation is that men are more likely to attempt really violent kinds of suicides. Guns are just one. There's also jumping, car crashes, death-by-cop, etc.

Women, on the other hand, are more likely to use more subtle suicide methods like poisoning and starvation.

The actual suicidal tendencies of men and women aren't different, it is only that men more often chose methods that are hard to not kill yourself with. Jumping off a building is more consistently deadly than downing whatever you have in your medicine cabinet.

[Willfor]

@ Neonivek

Masculine gender roles are a product of society. Feminine gender roles are a product of the same society. Feminism is the struggle against these gender roles because they are both ultimately sexist. I am a feminist because I believe women should have equal agency and treatment within society, and I believe in the feminist ideal of a world without gender-based roles. Masculine and feminine gender roles are the antithesis of this ideal.

If gender roles are broken down, both men and women who are put upon by a patriarchal ideal will benefit. The way you've been treated that makes you feel oppressed is another aspect of sexism. You are seen as the worst thing to be according to this model: Effeminate. "Like a woman." Don't you think that if women stop being seen as second-class citizens, the worst thing to be, that you will have one less vector of oppression on you?

Not every man benefits from patriarchy. But only men benefit from patriarchy.

[alexandertnt]

The issue is not that a gender is being depicted unrealistically, its that women are frequently presented as "less" then males. The point being that the people who create these games decide to put women in the "inferior" or "fanservice" rolls, whilst men get the "heroic" or "stronger" roles, very frequently and much more frequently than other mediums. There is a degree of relativity here.

Think of games that have both oversexualised, one-dimension males and females. They dont tend to cop much critisizm.

Dont get me wrong, I dont like the "Conan the Barbarian" depication either (actually I find it repugnant).

I think that some of the women who are raising these points are just tired of being portrayed in video games as flat, one-dimensional objects which are included for males (and this being the reason they are flat and one-dimensional). Which seems pretty fair.

Another issue is that "sexism against males" tends to be used by some people as a way to push a conversation away from the discussion (to "hijack" it).

The University I'm currently enrolled in let's male students leave campus "at their own caution" between classes, but women need special permission to do so.

Wha, really? where do you live out of curiousity.

Abuse towards women has a dirrect link to the way we enforce gender roles upon men

It does, but it is considerably less significant than the effect of the actual abuse towards women, hence why most attention is on the women.

On suicide:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_suicide

The reported difference in suicide rates for males and females is partially a result of the methods used by each gender. Although females attempt suicide at a higher rate, they are more likely to use methods that are less immediately lethal

[Glowcat]

That's not a legitimate explanation, since the suicide rate is much higher for males even in cultures where gun ownership is banned.

Suicide was the 8th leading cause of death for males and the 19th leading cause of death for females in 2000.1 More than four times as many men as women die by suicide,1 although women report attempting suicide during their lifetime about three times as often as men.

You do know the difference between reporting something and actually doing it, right? Men are less likely to report a pile of stuff, or go to the doctor when they're sick, etc.

... Are you, arguing with a quote that I never used? That's some serious strawmanning there.

I'm just going to Wikipedia dump this.

The reported difference in suicide rates for males and females is partially a result of the methods used by each gender. Although females attempt suicide at a higher rate, they are more likely to use methods that are less immediately lethal. Males frequently complete suicide via high mortality actions such as hanging, carbon-monoxide poisoning, and gun violence. This is in contrast to females, who tend to rely on drug overdosing.[11] While overdosing can be deadly, it is less immediate and therefore more likely to be caught before death occurs. In Europe, where the gender discrepancy is the greatest, a study found that the most frequent method of suicide among both genders was hanging, however the use of hanging was much higher in males (54.3%) than in females (35.6%). The same study found that the second most common methods were fire arms for men and poisoning for women.[15]

Methods of suicide are frequently correlated with both with traditional gender roles and availability of different methods. Men are more likely than women to both use and own firearms, which could account for the higher rates of firearm death among males. In nations where firearms have been banned, there is a drop in male suicides via gun but no change in females.[6] Females may tend towards less lethal methods of suicide because of gendered ideas about attractiveness.[6][11]

Because the methods of suicide favored by males tends to be more deadly, some researchers believe that male suicides are more frequently reported as such. Deaths by overdosing are frequently reported as accidental, indicating that the total amount of suicide deaths by females may be higher than is generally reported.[11]

All your concerns are already addressed therein, and it was sort of irrelevant to the point that as far as we're aware, females attempt suicide more often than males. You seemed to be implying that because men commit suicide gender inequality in the workforce isn't a good indicator of which gender has it worse overall in society (at least that's what I could gather from the vagueness of your statement). The underlying assumption needed to be corrected.

[Neonivek]

Parody cake? I like that term a lot and will now use it.

Thanks I love it too.

---

The male death rates during suicide has more to do with the method of suicide. I think if I remember correctly overdose is a more popular suicide method for females then males or something along those lines.

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It does, but it is considerably less significant than the effect of the actual abuse towards women

Well no because they are dirrectly linked. Women are being abused because we are telling men that to be men they need to be abusive.

Another issue is that "sexism against males" tends to be used by some people as a way to push a conversation away from the discussion (to "hijack" it).

Which in itself is an issue isn't it?

This derail happened ENTIRELY because one person said "Sexism affects men too" (sorta, it was less then that) and instead of "yeah ok" there were posts that basically said that sexism towards males is completely superfluous and unimportant.

Which because a lot of people who believe in women's rights also believe in the equal treatment of everyone irregardless of sex, gender, race, or age... you can imagine why that was offensive.

In otherwords, "Sexism against males" didn't derail the threat. Actual sexism towards males actually derailed the thread.

Mind you right now I am trying to link the idea that male gender roles are also one of the many things that influence women. Since it is an avenue that is often less explored.

For example the idea that men need to be controlling, violent, and distant is real and does lead to abuse.

What keeps the topic from exploring that is the idea that "Sexism towards men is completely unimportant and doesn't even affect men or at least not to the degree that anyone should care".

Which is why the topic is in what I call "Flux" it has a topic but it cannot stay on the rails long enough to really get there.

[Reelya]

That's not a legitimate explanation, since the suicide rate is much higher for males even in cultures where gun ownership is banned.

Suicide was the 8th leading cause of death for males and the 19th leading cause of death for females in 2000.1 More than four times as many men as women die by suicide,1 although women report attempting suicide during their lifetime about three times as often as men.

You do know the difference between reporting something and actually doing it, right? Men are less likely to report a pile of stuff, or go to the doctor when they're sick, etc.

... Are you, arguing with a quote that I never used? That's some serious strawmanning there.

I'm not "strawmanning" - i'm clarifiying the basis of your statement that women attempt to commit suicide more often. this is what you wrote, exactly:

...More men succeed at suicide. Because they're more likely to have access to guns. Women still attempt suicide more often.

The sources say they "report" more attempts, not that there is proof that they actually attempt it more often. You can't just omit the how the statistics was generated and say "X happens more often", because you can't absolutely KNOW that because it's based on self-reporting.

All your concerns are already addressed therein, and it was sort of irrelevant to the point that as far as we're aware, females attempt suicide more often than males. You seemed to be implying that because men commit suicide gender inequality in the workforce isn't a good indicator of which gender has it worse overall in society (at least that's what I could gather from the vagueness of your statement). The underlying assumption needed to be corrected.

No, you can't draw that as a categorical conclusion from the self-reporting data. You're omitting a step, and that invalidates you conclusion. Basically you're adding an assumption that doesn't existi in your source, that the reporting rates are consistent between the two genders, when in fact many sources say males under-report on a range of similar things.

Now I never said anything about  "Gender inequality in the workforce" being a good or bad indicator of ANYTHING, in fact i never mentioned it. So who's strawmanning exactly?

[Putnam]

The problem is is that encouraging men to be abusive isn't sexism against men, it's for them. It puts men into a position of power.

Not all men (some men are very content with not being dominant), but many. Humans in general like to be in power. (Reminder: "in general" means that I'm making a generalization, in which there will be exceptions.)

[Neonivek]

The problem is is that encouraging men to be abusive isn't sexism against men, it's for them. It puts men into a position of power.

Not all men (some men are very content with not being dominant), but many. Humans in general like to be in power. (Reminder: "in general" means that I'm making a generalization, in which there will be exceptions.)

Sexism is descrimination. Forcing people into a role in which they have to be this "force" is damaging to both men and women.

It is damaging to men because it stunts them emotionally and it affects how laws and others judge and percieve them (For example in abuse cases).

It is damaging to women because they are often given the counter role or are the ones of the receiving end of those roles (For example in abuse cases).

Power isn't one thing.

Most of where you can see that sexism towards men in play isn't in the majority but rather a minority of men.

[Putnam]

Yes, and sexism against men most certainly does exist in the realm of justice for violent crime. A man won't be taken as seriously if he's raped or beaten. This is incredibly unfortunate and it should be fixed.
However... we aren't really talking about violent crime right now?

[Neonivek]

Yes, and sexism against men most certainly does exist in the realm of justice for violent crime. A man won't be taken as seriously if he's raped or beaten. This is incredibly unfortunate and it should be fixed.
However... we aren't really talking about violent crime right now?

Yes but remember you just said we put the man in a possition of power and that is fine right?

Well we have women in possitions of lesser power. With the tenants that "Men must be in control" how should women be treated?

It is why the two are very linked. It is why a lot of people realised that we should raise male children to be sensitive and compassionate as well as strong.

[Putnam]

Men must not be in control, humans should be.

[Neonivek]

Men must not be in control, humans should be.

Humans lose control, they lose control all the time. The idea of total control or control at the wrongful expense of others is harmful.

While we can move to another topic at anytime (I won't continue this line of "Sexism towards women when birthed from sexism towards males" once the topic changes because it is too hot) I will just conclude that they very much are linked.

It is why I want Anita to look at women and how male characters treat them dirrectly and not just how the narrative does. Since how men are told to treat women and how women are told to expect to be treated is important.

[Putnam]

I'm saying that men should not be control any more than women should.

[Glowcat]

No, you can't draw that as a categorical conclusion from the self-reporting data. You're omitting a step, and that invalidates you conclusion. Basically you're adding an assumption that doesn't existi in your source, that the reporting rates are consistent between the two genders, when in fact many sources say at-risk males under-report on a range of similar problems they're having.

I'm sorry, but why exactly does an attempt at suicide need to be self-reported? Data is collected based on those discovering the suicide victim, it's not reported directly from the victim themselves. While there could be cases of subtle suicide attempts that just haven't been discovered and therefore must be reported by the victim you'd have to actually prove there's a disparity between genders there. It doesn't invalidate my claim that based on current evidence women are more likely to attempt suicide.