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[Griffionday]

Sheep:

Why ignore meta arguments? That was a big reason. That's like saying about me, "well, if you ignore his hammer, he's not scummy at all!"

I find meta arguments against a specific player to typically be wifom (as Ford pretty conclusively proved with Zrk2), especially when drawn from outside games that you haven't played in.  I also ignored the one about the votes because I consider it to not be a scum tell, as that whole sentence was to point out the parts of your case I consider valid.

The reads correlating to scumpicks? It's the same thing as bandwagoning, but on a mass scale. It allows him to blend in. I mean, when someone lays down a bandwagon vote, you don't say, "well, it's not scummy since he agrees with the majority opinion".

Nope; completely different.  A bandwagon vote is scummy because it show that the voter didn't have a valid argument of their own when they cast a lynch vote, and are piggy-backing off of other players when determining where to cast their vote.

Having a similar read as the rest of town just means that you agree that in general most of the rest of town is doing a decent job so you're letting them do the leg work until they dig up enough that you can put together a case on their target.  Typically a player's one or two people their pressing will not be as in sync with the rest of town, because that's where you can be productive in developing a case.

Sorry, not enough time to compile my argument for ZU. There was someone who compiled everyone's cases on ZU, though, right? It should be there.(I'm rushing now)

That was me.  I'm asking you to compile a more complete one when you get the time.


Questions from me you missed:

How is agreeing for the most part on who seems scummy with the exceptions of where you are personally poking at all a scum tell?

The bolded part is fundamental to the question.

How do you pay enough attention to the votes to be able to say that his reads are suspicious because they match who is being voted for at the time but not enough to know you were hammering?

Tiruin - Explained above. Suspeced lying, etc.

Could you expand that etc. a bit?

[Tiruin]

Tiruin:  Why are you voting TolyK over Sheep?

Because I have one vote and I'm in a conundrum of Sheep's motives. He seems more like he's drawing his scumhunting from the BM (and thus, what I told him >_>), but I've seen contradicting statements and am still finding out his validity.

And I'm still musing about TolyK:

> If TolyK is town, then that would explain the process of how poisoning/antidote'ing would work. He wouldn't know his targets. If scum, then it would be damned deadly, however that would explain why we've got no NKs. Because there were no NKs. All hypothetical of course, but by far, TolyK looks like the most deadly person at the moment.

> He missed one special point I was asking and due to stuff going on IRL, I didn't address it but focused on the post near the end of the thread...

TolyK
Could you answer this. Straight?

And why I asked whether anybody did anything on me: I wanted to know if any town person redirected me. Why? I don't want folks to die unless they're scummy, and I want to know who to save near day end.

At least here, this explains that you've got two distinct actions and that you should name and choose your antidote-receiver.

However. Funny thing?

Q: Can't scum just kill you and, with you, two (or even 3, if lovers) more people?
A: Nope, I made sure before the end of N1.

Oh so now we've another day action which does something funny, huh. Or something working in tandem with you poisoning NQT. Because 'before end'.

I don't get what you're asking. I asked Wuba about my role, and got an answer, and so I felt it was okay to do.

I bolded my question. How did you make sure before the end of N1?

Spoiler: My opinion? (click to show/hide)

...Judging by that answer, I can guess that its an inherent thing. That if you die then your targets who were poisoned won't die due to lack of antidote.

I want your answer though.

Also, cheerfulness is not equated to using and abusing the smiley to explain what you're planning. For all reasons, its annoying. You can be cheerful in any other way, because that explanation about cheerfulness hits me like a scapegoat for your....antics.

Query: Why of all things, did you expect people to say their actions on you when you asked them about it--seeing as you were only concerned with any redirect, huh?

Hapah

Request Replacement. There's just no way I can keep up with my current schedule. These 12+ hours days suck, and it's going to be like this for the next two weeks.

Get well soon.
TWS

Given that your whole case on me is lying. Something of which:
> Already has the post in question down.
> Speaks about a one-time situation @ D1.
> In regard to such, speaks of me as town if not for that presumption of lying...which actually is moot given the context.
> Has not yet been defined and only inferred from the meaning of lying.

My case is lying? How?

First point: No idea what you mean.
Second point: You mean speaking about the situation in D1 that was the entire basis of my case on you? You bet I'll bring that up.
Third point: Why moot? And I've already said, not all facets of somebody's play have to be scummy for that person to be scummy. I know you're capable of playing a good scum game.
Fourth point: Yeah, I missed it.

I meant your case on me was wholly based on lying and you consider that damning evidence enough to point me out as scum.
First point: I already did post down that post which you were basing your case on. 'The case of the missing post.' Which then you still declare that I'm lying about it.
Second point: Entire basis. Indeed. What else do you have to bring up on it? Gonna hinge everything there and not expound or do anything else to justify that Tiruin = scum?
Third point: Its moot because you're presenting a conjunction. If I hadn't 'lied', I'm town. If I did lie, I'm scum. The only basis you have of me lying is your own perception. QED.

And I don't see what you're trying to get there by attributing my gameplay with whatever.

Fourth point: Glad to see you've missed it.

Next point:

Does lying have a different definition in a BM than elsewhere? Lying = saying something that is not true.

YES. DOES LYING = SCUM?! YOU ONLY BELIEVE I'M LYING BECAUSE ITS PURELY BASED ON YOUR OWN PERCEPTION. YOU AREN'T PROVING IT AND ARE FLUFFING THE WHOLE AREA UP BY THAT. YOU'VE TUNNELED ME FOR MOST OF AN IN-GAME DAY AND WHAT HAVE YOU TO COME UP WITH IT? A "MY VOTE IS ON TIRUIN BECAUSE I BELIEVE SHE IS LYING."

IT STILL COMES DOWN TO THAT. Meaning I've no way of persuading you otherwise. How do you think lying is a conclusive enough fact here to mark me as scum? I posted down what I intended--later, rather than never due to me technically sifting through my browser to find it-- and all I get is still the same reply of you believing otherwise!

How can I defend against that?

I mean, I see more of your argument going by what I said as an IC, in the BM. I'm seeing you acting on what you've gotten in the BM. Hence me attributing most of your works to the newbie card earlier...something which I didn't like because most of it comes from my mouth. In a situational basis.

Query though:

Sure. I don't have many solid reads, though. From scum to town:

Tiruin - Explained above. Suspeced lying, etc.
TolyK - See below.
Vector? - Don't know if she should be here. Having trouble pinning her down, but gut says scummy.
Hapah - Seems to be activelurking slightly. Griffionday brought up a good point. Close to neutral.
Toaster - Basically neutral
NQT - Confirmed by Ranger, who I trust quite a bit. Haven't seen much suspicious from him.
RangerCado - Strange claims, but from his play I can't see him being scum.
Griffionday - Town. Hunts well, has made very few mistakes.

Yer reads, aye?

RangerCado lied. Yet he's near the town top. You can't see him being scum albeit he admitted to lying.

Wtf are you getting at TWS.

Moderator Webadict: Votecount? Also, my blood pressure reading?

[Tiruin]

Tiruin - Explained above. Suspeced lying, etc.

Could you expand that etc. a bit?

Well, the minimalizing of my case, for one. That stuff wasn't all that important, which is why I didn't name it outright. Maybe I shouldn't have put the "etc." there, but whatever.

And this means you're flailing your case!

Et cetera is a Latin expression that means "and other things", or "and so forth". You want me to poke you on semantics as you do me? Well here it is. If you say that 'that stuff wasn't all that important', then wtf marks me as scum, huh? Suspected lying?

SUSPECTED LYING?!

[Griffionday]

Bah.... Moral, don't post and do homework

Sheep
Ignore my last question, you've already answered it completely satisfactorily.

[Griffionday]

Tiruin

Moderator Webadict: Votecount? Also, my blood pressure reading?

Please explain this... rather confusing ability claim.

[Tiruin]

...What? Ability claim O_o

No, I'm just asking him such because flavor.

Why do you think its an ability claim?

[Griffionday]

...What? Ability claim O_o

No, I'm just asking him such because flavor.

Why do you think its an ability claim?

Well, I read the role-list for paranormal mafia, and the spore-sower came to mind for some reason... 

[Tiruin]

...I think you need rest.

Because I can in no way, Mafia or medical, see how that alien spore-thingy have any correlation to blood pressure...or how an ability claim could be connected with asking the mod something.

...Or how that answer was so far off of anything that I expected.

How is paranormal mafia ev- nevermind. Go rest. Now.

[Griffionday]

...I think you need rest.

Because I can in no way, Mafia or medical, see how that alien spore-thingy have any correlation to blood pressure...or how an ability claim could be connected with asking the mod something.

...Or how that answer was so far off of anything that I expected.

How is paranormal mafia ev- nevermind. Go rest. Now.

You're right of course.  Goodnight.

[RangerCado]

Web: Can we get a vote count before day end?

Okay, UNVOTE. I'm going to spend the next hour looking at peoples and my own cases before i lay down my final vote on either Tolyk or Sheep.

[RangerCado]

Okay, my decision is Tolyk. I just can't trust him right now and i don't like the chance of him poisoning another player if hes scum. If he is town, he'll likely let sheep die as well which will show us if he was scum or not.

On the other hand, if Tolyk is scum than we lose two other players. The only reason NQT or Sheep should survive Tolyk's poison if he flips scum, is if one of them are scum as well or to create WIFOM. (If one or both survive, inspections may be in order) I hope i'm not making a big mistake here.

(I made this post now as I don't think i will be on when the final outcome happens.)

[TolyK]

Tiruin:  Why are you voting TolyK over Sheep?

Because I have one vote and I'm in a conundrum of Sheep's motives. He seems more like he's drawing his scumhunting from the BM (and thus, what I told him >_>), but I've seen contradicting statements and am still finding out his validity.

And I'm still musing about TolyK:

> If TolyK is town, then that would explain the process of how poisoning/antidote'ing would work. He wouldn't know his targets. If scum, then it would be damned deadly, however that would explain why we've got no NKs. Because there were no NKs. All hypothetical of course, but by far, TolyK looks like the most deadly person at the moment.

> He missed one special point I was asking and due to stuff going on IRL, I didn't address it but focused on the post near the end of the thread...

I might be, actually, I'm not sure.

TolyK
Could you answer this. Straight?

And why I asked whether anybody did anything on me: I wanted to know if any town person redirected me. Why? I don't want folks to die unless they're scummy, and I want to know who to save near day end.

At least here, this explains that you've got two distinct actions and that you should name and choose your antidote-receiver.

However. Funny thing?

Q: Can't scum just kill you and, with you, two (or even 3, if lovers) more people?
A: Nope, I made sure before the end of N1.

Oh so now we've another day action which does something funny, huh. Or something working in tandem with you poisoning NQT. Because 'before end'.

I don't get what you're asking. I asked Wuba about my role, and got an answer, and so I felt it was okay to do.

I bolded my question. How did you make sure before the end of N1?

I think we're talking about the same thing in different meanings. I "made sure that I can prevent a scum multi-kill" by asking Webadict what would happen if scum killed me in a certain state.
You likely understood it as "did an action to make sure that nothing bad happened when scum kills me".

Am I right?

Spoiler: My opinion? (click to show/hide)

...Judging by that answer, I can guess that its an inherent thing. That if you die then your targets who were poisoned won't die due to lack of antidote.

I want your answer though.

... what?
Won't die due to lack of antidote, or will? Or that after death my poison wears off? Don't get what you mean here.

However, technically, it does. I say "technically" because there's a catch.
That catch I won't say right now, however, it will stop being a catch otherwise.

Also, cheerfulness is not equated to using and abusing the smiley to explain what you're planning. For all reasons, its annoying. You can be cheerful in any other way, because that explanation about cheerfulness hits me like a scapegoat for your....antics.

It's also the way I talk with my IRL friends over chat. I dunno, think what you want in that respect.

Query: Why of all things, did you expect people to say their actions on you when you asked them about it--seeing as you were only concerned with any redirect, huh?

I wanted to see peoples' reactions (most of which just ignored the fact that I said that...), and then again when I said I was looking at redirects.
If someone had blocked me last night, I wouldn't have unvoted TWS after my pressure vote. Seeing as no-one has claimed a redirect, I'm guessing town hasn't redirected, however scum might have.

Moderator Webadict: ... my blood pressure reading?

... what?
Oh, it's a joke.

Okay, my decision is Tolyk. I just can't trust him right now and i don't like the chance of him poisoning another player if hes scum. If he is town, he'll likely let sheep die as well which will show us if he was scum or not.

On the other hand, if Tolyk is scum than we lose two other players. The only reason NQT or Sheep should survive Tolyk's poison if he flips scum, is if one of them are scum as well or to create WIFOM. (If one or both survive, inspections may be in order) I hope i'm not making a big mistake here.

(I made this post now as I don't think i will be on when the final outcome happens.)

I can't say I agree with the logic in here.

I'll just wait for the hammer vote then, huh? But seriously. Can we extend again (already asked for extension)? I have yet to be useful enough right now.
And we still haven't decided on what to do with TWS.

I'd also like to hear input from some folks who are not here currently...
...
IC:
Summon planet. You know, Wuba...

[TolyK]

Also of note, you seem to be really hoppy with your votes, Ranger.
You first vote me (TolyK), then TWS, then me again. You can't really decide, can you? Or do you want to be able to later say "hey, I was suspicious of TWS as well"?

In case I die, my projected scumteams:
Vector-Ranger-Tiruin/TWS
Hapah-Vector-Tiruin/TWS
Hapah-Toaster-Ranger
NQT-any_2_other_folks

[TolyK]

But I urge all to Extend a second time.

[Toaster]

I can agree to an extend.