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Author Topic: Magic Mafia - Game Over!  (Read 220564 times)

RangerCado

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #315 on: April 07, 2013, 12:33:33 pm »

UI: Okay, but this still doesn't tell me if your wether you think my reasons for voting Zrk were justified or not, it even sounds like you didn't read my reasons for going after him the first time i explained them. This is strange to me as you appear to have suspicions on him as well yet go after the person whos been on him, and giving reasons for why, is strange and quite scummy to me. Although i consider Zrk scummier right now, you are becoming a close second. If Zrk comes up town however, i may be inclined to trust you.

 Tolyk: I do agree with this. I believe the Night could give us all quite a bit of Information into who our mafia team are, and i believe I could use the information effectively as i now better understand how to play. And i will say that "the night is your ally" could definately come true for the Town this game.
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Captain Ford

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #316 on: April 07, 2013, 12:39:33 pm »

Griff:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That was then, without him explaining why he did that >_>

This is now. He seems more focused and pointy, but his reasons...give much to ponder upon.
True. My point was more about the way he phrases things, and the fact that things he intends as sarcasm are often taken at face value when they shouldn't be. For better or worse, there's a perceptible pattern of him making sarcastic claims and people taking him seriously. (I mean, it just happened. I thought pointing it out was relevant)

PPE: Reflecting on it, I think part of it is that I'm trying to get a handle on Zrk2. He acts in a way that doesn't seem terribly productive, and I'm trying to puzzle out what's going through his mind. I've got a basic idea but in sharing my thoughts like this I invite other people to add their own input.

I still don't have a good enough picture to allow me to determine what is and isn't meaningful in terms of deciding what his alignment is. Though I think I do have a decent grasp of what he's doing and why he's doing it.

You're not voting though, Ford?
Nope. That will probably (hopefully) change today, since I actually have some calm suddenly. Due to me thinking I had work and then not actually having it.

I don't currently have a scum read on anybody. NQT's ploy is ... suspicious. But mostly it's just white noise, I think. Could be scum, but ... it's not easily distinguishable from how a town player who was playing it straight would handle it.

If NQT's ability does allow him to listen in, I don't see a good reason for him to hide that. It would make him look pro-town if he was scum, and it makes the ability more useful overall. It is possible that the ability forbids him from revealing that aspect of it (and even then, I don't know if that would have any bearing on his alignment. Just thinking about it is confusing). Has anything like this ever been used before?

...actually, now that I think about it, something like this was being discussed in one of the rules threads recently. It actually fits really well.
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Its official! Ford! You need to put it in your sig now! "Official Mafia Welcomer!"

Griffionday

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #317 on: April 07, 2013, 01:22:03 pm »

Re: NQT's Role claim,
So I was reading through this when I noticed that it would be trivially easy to check if there was a third party viewing a chat.  Down at the bottom of the page there is a view count thing, with an unique views count.  If that is more than three {Webadict, party A, party B} there is another person viewing the chat so you can start feeding them WIFOM.  Since it is trivial to avoid being spied upon, or at least to know that you are being spied upon, can we please drop that argument?

Now I was being serious when I said that being hit with lovers is a threat that I'm concerned about.  Think of what elements this ability would make perfect sense with; Love is pretty high on the list.  Considering that NQT has not said anything about this possibility, I'm not as concerned anymore; there are other elements/magic types that this ability could work with, for example the elements of harmony, or the magic of friendship would match this role.

I really want to keep imagining that NQT sent in the magic of friendship, so I actually don't want a role-claim.  But I do want to hear him say that there are no negative effects that this role causes.  So NQT; is the only effect of this ability letting two people chat in secrecy?
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RangerCado

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #318 on: April 07, 2013, 01:38:50 pm »

Griff: magic of friendship... isn't that My Little Pony?
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TolyK

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #319 on: April 07, 2013, 01:55:59 pm »

Tolyk: I do agree with this. I believe the Night could give us all quite a bit of Information into who our mafia team are, and i believe I could use the information effectively as i now better understand how to play. And i will say that "the night is your ally" could definately come true for the Town this game.
Well, uh, ok then.

Re: NQT's Role claim,
So I was reading through this when I noticed that it would be trivially easy to check if there was a third party viewing a chat.  Down at the bottom of the page there is a view count thing, with an unique views count.  If that is more than three {Webadict, party A, party B} there is another person viewing the chat so you can start feeding them WIFOM.  Since it is trivial to avoid being spied upon, or at least to know that you are being spied upon, can we please drop that argument?

Now I was being serious when I said that being hit with lovers is a threat that I'm concerned about.  Think of what elements this ability would make perfect sense with; Love is pretty high on the list.  Considering that NQT has not said anything about this possibility, I'm not as concerned anymore; there are other elements/magic types that this ability could work with, for example the elements of harmony, or the magic of friendship would match this role.

I really want to keep imagining that NQT sent in the magic of friendship, so I actually don't want a role-claim.  But I do want to hear him say that there are no negative effects that this role causes.  So NQT; is the only effect of this ability letting two people chat in secrecy?
Heh. That's actually not something I figured out, but it's basically metagaming. Wuba could easily log in from 3 different computers so that you wouldn't know.
Though, hm... It turns out it's likely not that bad...

Also, I still haven't seen Vector, which black hole ate her? :P
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My Mafia Stats
just do whatevery tolyK and blame it as a bastard mod
Shakerag: Who are you personally suspicious of?
At this point?  TolyK.

RangerCado

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #320 on: April 07, 2013, 02:01:50 pm »

did you really have to bring that up?
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Griffionday

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #321 on: April 07, 2013, 02:02:22 pm »

Ranger:
Griff: magic of friendship... isn't that My Little Pony?
...Maybe?


TolyK:
Heh. That's actually not something I figured out, but it's basically metagaming. Wuba could easily log in from 3 different computers so that you wouldn't know.
Which would still be suspicious.

Also, I still haven't seen Vector, which black hole ate her? :P
I was busy all day on Friday coming back from college (etc. blah blah blah) and today my family celebrated Easter.  Weekends count as zero time.  I will post tomorrow, but right now I have business to take care of.
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TolyK

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #322 on: April 07, 2013, 02:38:46 pm »

Ranger:
Griff: magic of friendship... isn't that My Little Pony?
...Maybe?


TolyK:
Heh. That's actually not something I figured out, but it's basically metagaming. Wuba could easily log in from 3 different computers so that you wouldn't know.
Which would still be suspicious.

Also, I still haven't seen Vector, which black hole ate her? :P
I was busy all day on Friday coming back from college (etc. blah blah blah) and today my family celebrated Easter.  Weekends count as zero time.  I will post tomorrow, but right now I have business to take care of.
True.
And "Tomorrow" from that day was today, for me. Eh.
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My Mafia Stats
just do whatevery tolyK and blame it as a bastard mod
Shakerag: Who are you personally suspicious of?
At this point?  TolyK.

Zrk2

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #323 on: April 07, 2013, 03:31:51 pm »

Zrk2: Is lurking no longer a cause for suspicion? Because UI only has 4 posts up till now, and a few others haven't posted much either.

I picked the two with the fewest posts. Four is also terrible.

-snip-
I never said it wasn't true. Anyway, as I said before, this seems you're voting for him because he had a different opinion. I could see it being a pressure vote, but as a lynch vote it looks scummy. You accuse him of trying to fly under the radar, but fail to keep in mind that it's his first game.

I'm voting for him because he had an idea with obviously terrible consequences and also because he held to it until it started to look like it would get him lynched. Only the fear of being lynched made him change it, not the cases presented explaining why it was bad for the town. Ergo scum.

Quote
I'm usually not very forceful

Quote
Why not get people worked up?
Are you acting out of character for yourself here, or is it something else?

Usually being the key word. Sometimes I get worked up and post like that. Furthermore it is possible to get others worked up without getting worked up yourself.

Zrk2:
I find that lynches on D1 do not have enough information to find scum with any reliability. It always comes down to who looks scummy, which is usually synonymous with playing poorly, and with some meta mixed in, at least until there are inspects protects and all the other paraphernalia that accumulate in the night. Thus if lynches D1 are going to be based solely on ability to scumhunt one might as well be honest and cut right to the chase. Furthermore losing an unproductive townie isn't terrible and just ensures that the townies that are around later on are more likely to actually find scum. Is that clear enough?
There is a MAJOR problem here actually; if you make your vote entirely based on a set of rules day one and have no further reasons, you WILL hurt the town N1 & D2.  Vote by rule/meta is simplistic; the reasons for your vote are "Well, he was playing like he didn't know what he was doing and that warrants my vote."  The problem with this is when the person lynched flips we have no more information on you.  So we then have to waste roles N1 and precious time early D2 in trying to get some other way of reading you.  Which is a lot of trouble you'd save us by actually scum hunting and finding whatever information you can D1.

I did not make the case that there should be no scumhunting D1, I said that policy lynches or acceptable. Obviously if someone seems very scummy then we should lynch them. But baring overtly obvious scum then a policy lynch of a lurker/terrible scumhunter is not a terrible alternative.

How'd you guess? Of course I'm scum.
Really? WIFOM?  I know you're joking, but I refuse to not use this sound byte.

I denial is exactly as useful as that, so I might as well indulge my sarcastic side.

It was a fucking RVS vote. I placed it because that's proper form. I wasn't particularly concerned with it. I've found someone I actually think is scum, now I care where it is.
Your vote has weight, no matter how little you cared about it.  proper form seems to me to be to change the vote when you stop questioning the first person your vote is on.  This would have been a good post to do this on.

Votes can become useful, and can apply pressure but the vote blocks formed up early in this game so my single vote all by its lonesome was applying essentially zero pressure so I wasn't worried about it. Now that the votes are getting closer and the day is drawing towards a conclusion my vote becomes much more important.

Quote
To flesh it out.
No... that's not the goal of RVS questions.  At least not what I meant by it in that case.  A RVS question feeds you stuff to pull apart and over-analyze to see what they'll say about your reads into what they are saying.  A RVS question in and of itself probably won't cause someone to give up a read.  It's what happens when you pressure them a bit more that's interesting.

Fair enough. Unfortunately I'm not very good at forcing people so I tend to keep an eye on everyone, responding to questions and analyzing the arguments of others until I find someone who I think is scum. Then I check through their posts, and if it seems likely I compile my case and move my vote. It's simply a different approach to scumhunting.

Lurking of the magnitude seen by those to is very serious, so of course it makes it onto my list.
Out of sheer curiousity, what percent of games that you've been in/read have the scum lurking day one?[/quote]

No idea. I don't keep statistics.

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To me it looks like you are trying to taunt him into becoming angry and looking scummy. That, Zrk2, is a pretty bad move.

Tell me, have you got anything out of the "keep him talking" thing? Because according to what you said, it only achieved that: making him talk.

That's a goal in and of itself. Why not get people worked up? It gives a different perspective on them. However, that was not my goal, I just wanted to draw him out and get him to answer the question. If he gets a little carried away so much the better. Why do you feel it is a bad move?
Yes, keeping a player talking is a goal by definition.  But is it in anyway useful, or does it just create a smoke screen of noise that the scum can hide in?

Yes. It gives additional insight into their mind. I don't see how the scum are supposed to hide behind it. Please elaborate.

Quote
So Zrk2, my vote is on you primarily because I feel the way you are acting in D1 is the most harmful to the town in the long run.  Yes you're playing qualitatively better than Ranger, but Ranger has been learning over the course of the game, and has expressed what felt like genuine concern that he doesn't have reads yet.  You on the other hand seem to be playing a self-fulfilling prophesy, if the only lynch we should do D1 is the weakest player, then the town will always be lynched D1.  Not [#mafia]/[#players]*100 percent of the time. ALWAYS.  Why you ask? the mafia have their chat, the strongest player can help the weaker players play better in the game, ensuring that if that rule is followed D1 will end in a town lynch.

I don't think coaching in scumchat can have that drastic of an effect. You are dramatically overstating the possibility for scum to help each other in scumchat.

Quote
But more than that, you deprive us of a valuable read on you as I mentioned earlier.  You're crippling the town N1 and early D2 by your vote for the weakest strategy.

Please tell me why you feel that this is an acceptable loss again? 
No wait:
I'm scum.

It's an acceptable loss because they weren't doing anything for the town anyway.

Quote
As you seem to miss questions, the ones I want you to answer are:
Quote from: Griffionday
What percent of games that you've been in/read have the scum lurking day one?
Is it in anyway useful, or does it just create a smoke screen of noise that the scum can hide in?
Why you feel that this is an acceptable loss again? (read the post and make sure you understand all that I consider lost)
Quote from: Deathsword
We are clearly out of RVS. You ask Griffon a wall of RVS questions. Andd now you shrug it off by saying that?

I answered yours above. To Deathsword: Yes I do. It wasn't too much to ask for someone to answer questions, was it? Heaven forbid we expect answers. We might find the scum or something.

Firstly, on your target picks, you're poking at them - believing lurking is a damnable offense on D1 (you didn't explain or expound this in much detail) - and focusing on Ranger for his...honestly, flawed way of logic; while it is flawed, it doesn't brush me in any malevolent way. Here I ask you this: Why do you lack faith in the lynch when it hasn't even happened yet? Do you think the other two beside you are more viable lynch-targets? If so, then what do you think about them. If not, can you summarize your case on Ranger and quote/link why? Lastly; do you really believe Ranger is scum, or 'unproductive' Town? If the latter, why unproductive? If he lives on, do you think he won't shape up?

Lurking is a damnable offence because it is unproductive. It hurts the town because you aren't finding scum. It hurts the town because they can't get reads on you. It hurts the town because there could be a more productive player in your place. Lurkers are a waste of a player space.

I lack faith in D1 lynches because almost every last one ends in a townie lynch. As I said earlier there simply isn't enough information available D1 to make a conclusive case, so rather than risk the lynch on someone who has been productive but "scummy" is a bad idea. If they really are scummy they will still be scummy D2, and lurkers will also still lurk D2. Thus lynching a lurker is more likely to pay off because it gets rid of a guaranteed threat rather than a possible one.

My case on Ranger was summarized above. It is that he wanted to hurt the town with a D1 no-lynch. BUT ALSO did not shift away from that stance until it threatened to get him lynched, not after it had been demonstrated to be fallacious.

Thus I think he is scum. But if he is town and he lives on he may shape up, but he also may not. That's just semantics.

Griff:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have a bad time treating the internet as srs bsns.

Zrk2:
I have had people rub me the wrong way, but so far I have not seen enough to place anyone else on the list. It's a work in progress.
Who, and what are you doing about it?

I still need to go back through the thread. I've had so many questions to address I haven't had time to go looking for scum. It's unfortunate I was hoping to have my list and justifications all written up today, but I have too much else going on.

Also, I still haven't seen Vector, which black hole ate her? :P

I believe it's called "real life."

That only took about an hour. Now I have to go. I may have time for a solid post later tonight, but probably not.
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Captain Ford

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #324 on: April 07, 2013, 03:57:48 pm »

I only just discovered the early-game activity from Ranger where he made vague references to what his role does. Hmm...

Ranger: What made you decide it was a good idea to vaguely hint at your role? What were you hoping to achieve with that?

Griff: magic of friendship... isn't that My Little Pony?
It's "Friendship is Magic".

And ponies won BYOR 4.



Unfocused Thoughts:
GriffionDay is definitely giving me a strong town feeling. Staring at his list of votes on the LT, it struck me that he's pushing his suspicions rather fervently. Also, he actually looked at quicktopic to see if there was a way to tell if someone was listening in secretly.

Are we really going to lynch Zrk again? I haven't seen anyone bring up anything that distinguishes his behavior now from his behavior every other time he was mislynched. Lynching him for stuff that he has been consistently shown to do when he's town doesn't seem productive in the least. I can't even conclude much of anything about the alignment of the people who voted for him, since I can't really fault any of their arguments against him.

NQT: Why are you still voting UI? Why did you let your scumhunting fall completely to the wayside once you claimed your ability?
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Its official! Ford! You need to put it in your sig now! "Official Mafia Welcomer!"

Griffionday

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #325 on: April 07, 2013, 04:10:53 pm »

Zrk2:
Yes. It gives additional insight into their mind. I don't see how the scum are supposed to hide behind it. Please elaborate.
I was thinking in the sense that if players have to read through several hundred posts they are more likely to skim the majority of posts, meaning subtle scum tells are less likely to stand out.

I did not make the case that there should be no scumhunting D1, I said that policy lynches or acceptable. Obviously if someone seems very scummy then we should lynch them. But baring overtly obvious scum then a policy lynch of a lurker/terrible scumhunter is not a terrible alternative.
And I'm making the case that policy lynches should not be seen as remotely acceptable.  For reasons which you seemed to have missed in my post.

My case on Ranger was summarized above. It is that he wanted to hurt the town with a D1 no-lynch. BUT ALSO did not shift away from that stance until it threatened to get him lynched, not after it had been demonstrated to be fallacious.
The read I got from his refusal to instantly change his opinion once cases against it had been presented was townie.  He honestly thought he was helping the town, and until he was convinced that it would hurt the town he refused to change his vote.  I feel that if he were scum, he would have changed his view as soon as it was attracting attention to him. 

Quote
As you seem to miss questions, the ones I want you to answer are:
Quote from: Griffionday
What percent of games that you've been in/read have the scum lurking day one?
Is it in anyway useful, or does it just create a smoke screen of noise that the scum can hide in?
Why you feel that this is an acceptable loss again? (read the post and make sure you understand all that I consider lost)

I answered yours above.
No you didn't.  There is more lost than just the player who wasn't helping town.  There is also the loss of the read on you, which could cause people to needlessly focus their attention on you during the first night, and force people to question you further D2 morning.  Explain why THAT is an acceptable loss.


Ford:
Griff: magic of friendship... isn't that My Little Pony?
It's "Friendship is Magic".

And ponies won BYOR 4.
"The magic of friendship" is often spoken by Celestia, so I consider it an acceptable quote.

Are we really going to lynch Zrk again? I haven't seen anyone bring up anything that distinguishes his behavior now from his behavior every other time he was mislynched. Lynching him for stuff that he has been consistently shown to do when he's town doesn't seem productive in the least. I can't even conclude much of anything about the alignment of the people who voted for him, since I can't really fault any of their arguments against him.
I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with his meta do you have examples of his D1 "strategy" I should look at (outside of the one where he claimed cult leader)?  It could help if you give examples of how his behavior changes when he is scum, if were going to do this purely based on lack of play-style change.  I would also like to note that he does keep saying we should lynch the person who is doing the worst job scum hunting...
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Captain Ford

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #326 on: April 07, 2013, 04:17:45 pm »

Griff: Roguelike 6 hasn't concluded yet, but I would definitely point to that because it's very recent and shows exactly the same behavior. (I don't think there's any harm in me saying that much, but I won't discuss it beyond that)
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Its official! Ford! You need to put it in your sig now! "Official Mafia Welcomer!"

notquitethere

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #327 on: April 07, 2013, 04:27:24 pm »

Pfp- thanks for pointing it out Ford- unvote. Been very very busy lately. Will be making my decision when I'm more awake tomorrow. Scum hunting etc. will resume as per usual afterwards (though I am hardly the lurkiest of players by a longshot right now). Will also reply to questions when more awake too.
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Griffionday

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #328 on: April 07, 2013, 04:40:10 pm »

NQT:
(though I am hardly the lurkiest of players by a longshot right now).
Why did you claim this?  It sounds like "here's a reason to vote for someone other than me" with no prompting.

Considering your scumhunt/post ratio, I'd actually put you as one of the more lurky players, Soldier for example hasn't been here, but he's also been offline, Vector has stated that she's busy, etc.  You have interacted with the game, but don't scum hunt as much, which is lurking.
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RangerCado

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Re: Magic Mafia - Day 1: Let The Magic Begin
« Reply #329 on: April 07, 2013, 05:09:31 pm »

Captain: Yeah, not sure where i got that notion in my head. I stopped that later but in all honesty, i shouldn't have even started that little endeavor.

 28 hours until lynch. *wakes-up and stands* "Kirby hates the purple sllurrrrrpppeee" *falls unconsious again*
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