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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 832037 times)

SealyStar

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I'll call Mr. Willis.

He'll need an ample supply of shoulder holsters, infinite M9 magazines, bloodied, torn vests and world-weary humour. Probably a sidekick as well.
Nah, just an improbably high-tech spacecraft, a crew of incompetent criminal oil drillers, and two scientific errors a minute. Ben Affleck fills the sidekick part
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I assume it was about cod tendies and an austerity-caused crunch in the supply of good boy points.

lue

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I can see a good point for the rule. Don't want to waste time on a vote you know will fail, and instead use that time to re-hash the bill to something that WILL pass.

In practice, I don't know if that's the rationale, or if it's what it's used for.
Like I said, making deals, convincing others to go along with you, is a good thing. I suppose I just don't like how it's been codified as a "how to have a successful vote" (Make sure it passes the vote!) rule instead of a "how to have a successful bill" (Make sure a majority likes it!) rule.

I dunno, maybe I'm just being screwy in my opinions on what the vote means, and how I interpret the Hastert rule. All I know is that I would never hold it against Boehner or anyone else for "breaking the Hastert rule".
Read mah edit, babe~
Well, now I see the edit. But my post is still accurate on myself :) .
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Baffler

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So...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/16/politics/shutdown-showdown/

I take it this means Boehner will allow it to come to a vote?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Quote from: Helgoland
Even if you found a suitable opening, I doubt it would prove all too satisfying. And it might leave some nasty wounds, depending on the moral high ground's geology.
Location subject to periodic change.
Baffler likes silver, walnut trees, the color green, tanzanite, and dogs for their loyalty. When possible he prefers to consume beef, iced tea, and cornbread. He absolutely detests ticks.

smirk

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http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/10/it-looks-house-tea-partiers-have-finally-lost-budget-civil-war/70551/

Apparently Boehner's coming out of this pretty well. The ultraconservatives are praising him for trying and blaming moderates for folding. The cheeto-dust golem might actually get to keep his speakership 0_o  He's apparently promising to deliver 50 'pub votes for the compromise bill in the House, so it'll squeak by sometime before midnight tonight.

Also, as misko27 pointed out, markets are up.
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When i think of toady i think of a toad hopping arround on a keyboard
also
he should stay out of the light it will dry out his skin
his moist amphibian skin
.

tryrar

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Huh, so it might actually get done. Quote guessing time!

"TODAY, WE ARE CANCELLIN' THE APACOLYPSE!"
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No. I suppose there are similarities, but I'm fairly certain angry birds doesn't let me charge into a battalion of knights with a car made of circular saws.

lue

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Huh, so it might actually get done. Quote guessing time!

"TODAY, WE ARE CANCELLIN' THE APACOLYPSE!"

"GOP SHUTS UP FOR SHUTDOWN"
"DEFAULT DEFEAT FOR TEA PARTY"
"BÖHNER BRINGS DOWN THE HOUSE ON DEAL"
"OBAMACARE LIVES THROUGH SHUTDOWN, DEBT CEILING"
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Mephansteras

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Sad thing is, the Tea Party probably won't be too hurt by all of this since a lot of their followers seem to refuse to understand just how bad a default would be.

I hope this shakes up the GOP in a good way, rather than filling more spots with ultra-conservatives as the moderates get pushed out for being involved in this nonsense in the first place.
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misko27

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: DECEM HORAE Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #3487 on: October 16, 2013, 04:06:58 pm »

Reading the wiki article on it makes me realize that, once again, I assumed the American democracy was actually trying to be efficient and democratic. Nope, it's not "majority of the house will vote for a bill, or else we won't put it to the floor", it's "Majority of the majority will vote for it, regardless of the house majority or if the votes are in the minority, or else we won't put it to the floor"

If you guys don't default, I'm hoping all this dirty laundry of -how- you guys run your system puts some impetus to at least token change. Like seriously, everywhere you turn there's institutional corruption and "You can't be serious" systems in place.
Now, know I am telling you the Lord's truth when I say it was never intended to be efficient or effective, in fact, it was hoped to be neither.The American system is a unique result of it's early years. The American public had liberated themselves from a foreign power, and they had at best a minor recognition of the need to stay together. States were regarded as the actual point, and everything was run on a state level. This was considered a improper system by many, and the country split, between those who valued Democracy, and those who valued a strong, effective central government, which was seen as the antithesis of Freedom. The First attempt at a national binding document, the Articles of Confederation, leaned far in the direction of the states, with an eye to preventing any possibility of Tyranny, so much so that the country began to fall apart, as states wrote their own laws in complete defiance of the central; and the Central Government, which required a 2/3 vote of 13 representatives to accomplish anything at all, and a full vote to change the articles, was nearly powerless.

The Constitution as written gives the Central government theoretically almost unlimited power and control over the country and how it is run (which is has slowly assumed more of as the years go by), but it was written to bind it to the system we use, with an constant eye to checks and balances, or more bluntly, playing one faction against the other. It was designed so that a compromise would be able to pass the system mostly unscathed, but nothing else could, so no one faction (as parties didn't exist yet) could ram through something objectionable. In that it accomplishes that goal, it works, mostly. However, it has come to several blockade never originally imagined: 1. The Government has created systems where in it requires action (read: Compromise) to operate, which can be abused. 2. The Political parties today have become Polarized and self-consitiency, where going against your party is a political sin you can be punished for (possibly by the respective party reducing or even removing their funds for campaigning for you), and where the factions amount to 2 (maybe 3) where there had once been many (the Democrats were once big in the South for example. Ever heard of Dixiecrat?)and so it is impossible for a alliance of smaller groups to pass something.

Simply put, the parties have gone into a position that happens to work terribly with the system. If the Republican Party goes belly-up in the next few elections, The Democrats will start factionalizing while the republicans work to bring in new members by moderating, especially on Social issues. Or maybe the Democrats will splinter into several parties while the Republicans become the "extreme right" party, but I sorta doubt it. The Two-Party system is as old as the Constitution, The First President a member of a bygone party, and it is designed with that in mind.


Anyway, Ted Cruz has stated he won't try any procedural nonsense to slow the Senate down, so expect a vote tonight. From there, the House will vote on it, and they don't use nearly as much procedure, so we should see a deal tonight.

This is a bit like watching a meteorite move very close to the Earth.
Or even into an unstable near-earth orbit. The proposed bill funds the gov't through Jan 15 - three months - and raises the debt ceiling through Feb 7 - three and a half months. So rather than this fight being a yearly event, we can look forward to it roughly every quarter! Hooray!!

Nothing bad will ever come of this.
Ehh, actually the last fight over this was in January of this year, so we're averaging slightly below bi-annually. And that one went down a lot smoother, with Boehner conceding early and waiving the Hastert rule. Back when he had balls.


Also, this graph amused me. Also check out th eone about Obamacare approval. Approval has gone down by a lot, but disapproval has gone down even more, almost double, and has dropped to below 50% for the first time since May. I wonder why?
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Nadaka

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEPTEM HORARUM donec CRISIS EVITATA?
« Reply #3488 on: October 16, 2013, 04:13:55 pm »

the us system was designed for parties, much less 2 of them.

the presence of parties creates a degenerate condition in the system that pushes the govornment towards 2 parties.

a system designed with parties in mind would be structured differently.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 04:26:33 pm by Nadaka »
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

Lagslayer

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEPTEM HORARUM donec CRISIS EVITATA?
« Reply #3489 on: October 16, 2013, 04:35:37 pm »

Political parties weren't around since the very beginning, but they came pretty shortly after. There weren't any organized parties to speak of until after George Wshington left office, but they just sort of coagulated on their own. I don't think they are something that can be realistically outlawed without a super fascist state. A political party is basically just a collection of people that agree to back a certain candidate chosen by the party leaders. There is no law saying that you must vote along party lines, but there is a culture nonetheless because of reasons not directly related to the law.

What's the practical difference between , say, the Republican Party convention and a few people gathering in the park discussing their favorite candidate?

It all falls under freedom of assembly. I believe the government should not be able to give preferential treatment to certain idealogical groups like this. People must choose to vote for these people, to fund their campaign, and to believe the "obvious lies" they spew.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 04:37:37 pm by Lagslayer »
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lue

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEX HORAE donec CRISIS EVITATA?
« Reply #3490 on: October 16, 2013, 05:08:37 pm »

6 Hours Remain.

a system designed with parties in mind would be structured differently.

It would essentially be parliament :) .

I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it: I'm completely alright with the extremism of the Tea Party. I'm not fine with that ideology controlling half of the political spectrum in Washington. I would really like to see a parliamentary-ish system that allows multiple parties to flourish and have a stake in government. (I really need to write up all the changes I'd like to see to the US gov't sometime, just so I have a better idea on where I stand.)
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SalmonGod

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEPTEM HORARUM donec CRISIS EVITATA?
« Reply #3491 on: October 16, 2013, 06:06:34 pm »

What's the practical difference between , say, the Republican Party convention and a few people gathering in the park discussing their favorite candidate?

True, but the reality has gone quite a bit further than that... to the point where those people have made their park officially recognized as the only place where selection of real candidates takes place, get exclusive privileges and funding to make their park more attractive and accommodating than anyone else's, and gained legal power to prevent anyone they don't like from entering that park.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINQUE HORAE donec CRISIS EVITATA?
« Reply #3492 on: October 16, 2013, 06:07:28 pm »

Five hours remain. The end is in sight, but we're still waiting on a Senate vote, and the House could still go batshit.
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

misko27

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GlyphGryph

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: QUINQUE HORAE donec CRISIS EVITATA?
« Reply #3494 on: October 16, 2013, 06:15:14 pm »

I don't fully understand how this is happening  - don't budget bills have to originate in the House?
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