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me

8 (16%)

me

2 (4%)

me

5 (10%)

help i'm trapped in a poll i don't know why i'm here i'm so scared someone please help

29 (58%)

me

6 (12%)

Total Members Voted: 50

[Toaster]

Oh yeah, it's the "can be any kind of tree-tree."

[Andres]

What the hell happened to our legs during Oversoul?

[flabort]

Oh yeah, it's the "can be any kind of tree-tree."

Maybe we could actually put skills into it to upgrade them.

[Cerol Lenslens]

(Dissuade: 1-12 Awesomeness of claim-10 Known status as Lying Creator) Your attempt to discourage the silly forumgoers seems to have the opposite effect. They immediately begin to plan a way to recruit this alternate Al - clearly the hidden Twelfth Sibling - fuse his Illborn posse into an unstoppable behemoth, and loot his hellscape of everything not nailed down.

[FallacyofUrist]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Okay, point. But really, what else would it make sense to effect? Also, I think that the thing has a cooldown, or a rather high cost... there's probably a way to balance it. Also: reasoning for effecting rooms: the Catalyst has an earth theme, and that I feel corresponds with the dungeon levels... oh that's not a good link is it. Oh well. At least it seems messing with rooms is something the Catalyst could do, and is likely to do. If you have an other possibility... Also: as to the balancing: it probably has negative effects for sentient life within the room when swapped.

Nothing comes to mind, and the X,Y,Z designations make it sound likely. But the problem is that function doesn't make sense either, and trying to tack on possible restrictions or alterations to it just reinforces the point that we really have no idea. It could be Thing A With Restrictions B, C, And D; but it could also be Thing A with Restrictions E, F, And G; or Thing B with Restrictions B, F, and H; or Thing I with Features D and J; and so on.

As an example in this particular case, it could swap entities but not items or terrain; or it could swap terrain but not anything on the terrain; or it could swap just loose objects; or it could overwrite one thing as a reimagined version of the other; and so on. If the only thing we know is that it could be an infinite array of possibilities, pretending we at least know it's this particular branch of infinity strikes me as unwise.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=121809.msg4892629#msg4892629
I seriously think we should consider buying the eyebrow-waggling technique for 2 river dollars. That's +10 persuasion right there for us to take advantage of in any way we want to. Honestly, what can't we do with +17 persuasion total?

Assuming that's all eyebrow wiggles, what makes you think we can get it for 2 river dollars?

Though for the record, I am in favor of raising our Persuasion stat at any and all costs. I doubt ffs will let us, but I'm open to the possibility.

... well we could always test it out, and see if it does the room manipulation.

[IronyOwl]

One of the Als was Kit Kat. Who I still wanna resurrect somehow.

Once we go Oversoul.

I could have sworn we talked about or maybe even tried this sometime. Is that true and did anything ever come of it? Searching back didn't reveal Kat dropping an Essence...

... well we could always test it out, and see if it does the room manipulation.

Is there a reason we haven't already?

[FallacyofUrist]

... facepalm. Why did we never test the Catalyst out? There's no real reason not to... unless you count soul charge loss... and we don't need to use too much though... dangit. 

[monk12]

I think we never did because it didn't have a z coord before the theorycraft answer, so we couldn't work out what the point would be of teleporting within a single D-level as opposed to, y'know, walking.

Makes me wonder exactly what effect a World Tree would have.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=121809.msg4463652#msg4463652
This was not in the index of updates.

Corrected!

[RAM]

Oric has demonstrated a generally, antagonistic, hostile, undermining, and generally unpleasant attitude towards the target, along with a penchant for pursuing homicidal methods of conflict resolution. I propose that Oric wants the target dead because Oric hates(or loves, for all the shippers out there) the target and murder is always a preferred solution. That would address Oric wanting the target dead, as for any benefits, cultural imperatives, strategic considerations, utility, or any of the above inverted, that would be less of a want and more of a choice...

And plain old greed/resentment is a popular choice for homicide, maybe something about wanting all of the holy...

[flame99]

It's FFS. There's no way in hell it'll be that simple.

[monk12]

Oric has demonstrated a generally, antagonistic, hostile, undermining, and generally unpleasant attitude towards the target, along with a penchant for pursuing homicidal methods of conflict resolution. I propose that Oric wants the target dead because Oric hates(or loves, for all the shippers out there) the target and murder is always a preferred solution. That would address Oric wanting the target dead, as for any benefits, cultural imperatives, strategic considerations, utility, or any of the above inverted, that would be less of a want and more of a choice...

And plain old greed/resentment is a popular choice for homicide, maybe something about wanting all of the holy...

If we need reasons for Oric hating the Target, it could be that he's jealous of the Astral Influx's power. We know that there were 3 Soul Stars made with the power to control the Warrens; Oric's, Ciro's, and a third unidentified one (possibly Cain's or Al's.) When setting up his perpetual murder cycle Oric chose Ciro to be the Target because the Astral Influx has the most power to oppose Oric, a power he jealously guards.

[Furtuka]

Maybe the third one belongs to pink girl...

[XXXXYYYY]

I just realized that of the people who have had their backstories revealed (that I can remember), only those who entered of their own free will kept their souls (and thus star) intact.

The Siblings entered before the cycles were created, keeping their soulstars.
Yaos entered in search of the OS, soulstar untouched.
Al entered to help Cherish willingly, star untouched.
Wilford, however, was forced alongside, and became illborn
Slog was forced in, and became illborn as well.

I might have missed someone though. I'm currently doing a reread.

It's probably nothing though.

[IronyOwl]

I just realized that of the people who have had their backstories revealed (that I can remember), only those who entered of their own free will kept their souls (and thus star) intact.

Al entered to help Cherish willingly, star untouched.
Wilford, however, was forced alongside, and became illborn

These two are particularly interesting, because as it stands we honestly don't understand why this difference exists. But it's inspired a better idea as an answer. Unless somebody else already mentioned this, which I think they might have.

In any case: Al is the Angels' new Lord. We know from Al talking to one of them that it's not Ciro after all: "We know her far too well to choose her for our Hail Mary." That's why, instead of being processed as normal, his Star was shunted off and kept safe. The only other outsiders to have this happen that we know of are Cherish, who was similarly preserved on purpose, albeit for less grand purpose, and Yaos, who was a foreign presence that the Warrens actively rejected.

This would also help, though not totally explain, why Chief had Al's Star, gave Al his Star, and mentioned in giving him his Star that it was "past time" he had it. Chief is Cain's brother, whatever that means in this context. That he might be in league with the Angels, out of malice against Oric, personal gain, or both, seems self explanatory. That he would have both opportunity and ability to do so is not, but is at least plausible.

I mean, think about it. Every Star Soul'd character that we know of is either a Sibling, or Al or Cherish. I think most people probably assumed for a very long time that was because they were important, especially back when we didn't really understand what Stars were or how they worked. Now that we do, it's starting to seem like something more significant (and sinister) than that.

[IronyOwl]

Strange addendums:


Trivia:

Spoiler: Whispers In The Dark (click to show/hide)

433unfitflureditoutfourthsiblingstheweaponshehastoauntiewillgiveyouacookie

You don't want to do this any more.

433unfitflureditoutfourthsiblingstheweaponshehastoauntiewillgiveyouacookie

433unfitflu
reditoutfourthsiblingstheweaponshehasto
auntiewillgiveyouacookie

Did we figure out the Siblings' order yet? Is Ecco the fourth? Did somebody know he had/was involved with the weapon well before he told Oric?

The King and the Lord

Spoiler: Ask The New Guy (click to show/hide)

New king...?

He seems legit, but you don't know what he's talking about. What will you tell him?[/center]

So for starters, I seem to have gotten my titles crossed. The King is presumably Oric, whom the angels are hoping to replace with someone in our party, presumably, as far as the new guy knows Al. The Lord is the existing Last Seraphim, presumably, as far as we know, etc.

Perhaps more interestingly... where are they getting new Angels from? Is there a recruitment center somewhere? Do they reproduce like normal living things?

Spoiler: Ecco Star (click to show/hide)

Ecco holds up his Soul Star.

Your choice here will alter the course of the story in a very important and permanent way, even if you give Ecco nothing. Choose carefully.

And again: Somebody, in this case Cain, thinks somebody in our party has the ultimate Soul Star which is the Ultimate Weapon, which also belongs to somebody destined for the throne.

Spoiler: Hellyfish Confirmed For Lord's Minions (click to show/hide)

Huh. Let's see



I Beseech you Let Us Through



Must follow Lord's Orders



Where is my castle?



Ecco stole it when we found your... Wreckage cycles Ago

Why is a DL3 Hellyfish following the Lord's orders? Assuming she's the Last Seraphim as we've been assuming, would that mean she's following Oric's orders in keeping the DLs nice and dungeony? Is she guarding Cain for some reason? Possibly because Cain obviously can't be trusted with his own minions the way Proxxy could have Wisps and Searchbots, and presumably the way Ecco can have control over Valkyries and Fellsettos?

For that matter, assuming the Hellyfish are following the Lord's orders... does DL3 and its inhabitants tell us more about Cain, Oric's imprisonment of Cain, or the Lord And Presumed Last Seraphim?

Go Time:

Spoiler: Angelic Friend (click to show/hide)

All kinds of curious. Have we met anyone on DL4, who might be considered a "friend" of the Angels but isn't one of them, who has... "his own little code-speak a lot like our Lord?"

Because I swear if The Last Seraphim is a lolcat I'm just gonna-

Spoiler: Ecco's Plans (click to show/hide)

But then we get this weirdness. If Ecco is their "friend," why's he planning on slaughtering them all? Is that only Oric's angels as opposed to angels hostile to him? Was "friend" meant entirely and completely sarcastically? Is he just going off the deep end in more ways than one?

So overall, we seem to know that:

-There is An Ultimate Weapon
-It is a Soul Star
-We have it... or at least everyone (meaning Cain and people listening to Cain, basically) thinks we have it

We further "know" that it's given or assigned to one destined for the throne, which matches "King" well enough. It seems reasonable enough to conclude that Oric is the current King, The Last Seraphim is the Lord, and the angels and Ecco are both plotting to brutally murder Oric the Current King and replace him with somebody else. In the angels' case, this appears to be an ally of some sort who is even now within our very party. In Ecco's case, it's presumably himself, if he cares beyond the savage murder of Oric and suspension of being reincarnated and forgetting about Floe part.

Which brings us to the question of which member of our party. One interesting clue is the mention that said weapon has been "assigned." Unfortunately that still tells us very little; Al is the only member to have been given his by a shady questgiver, but it's hard to say with ironclad certainty that nobody's been "given" their Stars otherwise.

Ciro is probably the least likely, since he got his Star incredibly early and appears to be an essential part of the Warrens. Him being finally at long last assigned his own Death Star would require some definite shenanigans on everyone's part.

Riltia is mostly in the same boat, but she does have one ace up her sleeve- the nonsense with the voices and triangle yandere. It's possible the corruption of her Star was or was related to being "given" the weapon. Still doesn't sound especially likely, but it's ahead of Ciro, at least.

Cherish also seems unlikely, especially since she was a battery, but finding hers in a tube and handing it over is hardly unmysterious enough to write her off entirely.

So as mentioned, this leaves the real winner as Al. Everything about him and his Star is anomalous- he entered the Warrens without losing it, Chief had it and then gave it to him, and he's shady and ancient. He's in all ways perfect for the role of Usurper King, at least as far as we know.


The things we don't know, obviously, could fill a fucking DL and then overflow into sublevels.


Other benefits of this research:

(Gather: 6) Al attempts to gather Kit Kat's ashes, but they waft away out of reach.

Oops. KitKat fate confirmed.


monk-senpai: This vital update is not listed in the index. Threw me off searching for it!